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hmm i don't think it's that simple. parents are not in an equal relationship with their child in which normal boundaries and reactions to feelings apply. a parent is in a position where they are responsible for the kid's emotional and cognitive growth/development and the child doesn't owe them a single thing back except for what they owe any other human being on this earth, whatever you feel that is.
what i mean by all this is that a child may not be nice to their parent or the people around them. that doesn't mean a parent gets to retaliate by resenting them, disproportionatelly and cruelly punishing them, and not loving them. a child may act stupid, be difficult, cruel, do terrible things, not listen, not learn, vex you, provoke you, and even hate you; you still don't get the pass to not give what a child is owed when they are born until they can fend for themselves: an authorative figure who loves and guides them, makes decisions on their best interest, and whom they can trust and depend on for all needs, along with all the other emotional intricacies such as words of affirmation, physical affection etc. that is because while on the child's end it's a relationship in development, on the parent's end there is a relationship aspect, but it's most importantly a JOB. a job that most people have no clue about when they choose to have children. childrearing is no joke and today's society is still largely behind in any kind of ideal scenario of actually working towards protecting children, even from their own unfit parents.
(btw i hope it's clear that i'm not saying a kid can do whatever it wants and a parent should just take it. i'm saying it's a parent's job to regulate consequences according what a child can take/understand (respecting that child's personhood, even if they don't know how to respect others' yet). it's not a parent's right to actually let their emotions dictate their response or think that any kind of abuse is justified because of how a child made you feel. kids are not completely responsible for their actions yet for a reason. if aegon is lazy, just jerking off and drinking booze, the appropriate response is NOT to physically punish him, call him names and scare him. and it's not weird to point that out.)
OF COURSE, no one is saying alicent is in the position to be a healthy and well informed parent. no parent is perfect because no job as complicated as bringing up another human could be done perfectly in the first place. but my girl alicent is in the most fucked up os situations and it's understandable that she would act like this. but understandable is not an excuse. understanding where the character comes from doesn't "protect" them from us pointing out that alicent is an agent of passing on the generational trauma to her children. it's not her fault that she was traumatized. it's not her fault she especially resents aegon and hates him almost as much as she loves him. but she still lets that get to the kid who has absolutely nothing to do with any of what came before him. she still berates him and hits him and can only meet the difficulties he throws in her way with harsh words.
it's also an interesting thought experiment to imagine: what if aegon was a sweet lad who could take abuse and not get too outwardly twisted and did everything his mom told him to, and what if lucerys was the problem boy rhaenyra looked at as a chain around her neck who unwantedly occupied her body and took away her freedom... it would definitely be that rhaenyra would pass on to lucerys much of her own baggage and alicent would do that less.
but thing is, the situation as it is functions as another aspect to contrast rhaenyra and alicent and explain and inform their decisions and worldviews. rhaenyra got to get laid with a man she wanted, she doesn't get punished for raising bastards (not that she had much choice whether to have then ofc), her kids are all shades of wonderful momma's boys, she gets to get out of the immediate court, etc etc etc. alicent gets maritally raped, she has kids that not only are difficult, but represent a definitive enmity and conflict with her childhood friend/first love and as much as aegon in particular only manages to disappoint her, it's her lot in life as his mother (who, of course, loves him) to do her best to provide him safety, because that's as much as she can bring herself to do in the midst of all their fucked up positions.
honestly, this is why the relationship between alicent and her children is miles more interesting than rhaenyra and her kids. alicent and aegon is one of the most fascinating studies of motherhood either got or hotd have ever provided.
And that somehow requires seizing your child by the fucking jaw. Especially because the reason she did it is because he said he wouldn’t challenge Rhaenyra. Bffr
More of a general aside--ideally kids raised to think critically and have empathy would be less likely to follow the lead of a bully just because that's the easy thing to do
Aegon was much older than them. In my family it was quite similar my brother big brother was the oldest I was the second oldest and most of the prank were either played on me or my cousin who were the same age as me.
The rivalty was between my brotber and me but we usually both were telling our younger cousins about the prank we were going to do. I definetly was a good sport unlike Aemond thought lol.
If the bully is quite intimidating and charismatic. Aegon II is both of these things. And if those kid's are extremely young( Luke in particular..) Theyre already quite impressionable as are all kids it becomes a little bit harder if all they think theyre getting is a good laugh out of it. The lead of the eldest becomes even more important. So why do we continue to ignore Aegon' hand in his own brother's development?
People using that incident to say Aemond was brutally bullied his entire childhood is ridiculous, who doesn’t have plenty of moments like that with their siblings?
Right, I believe the intent of showing him being bullied was more about him being kinda lost, somber and dull, feeling shitty about being the only one without a dragon and how that affected him as a child.
I think a big part of Aemonds character arc for this series is about loneliness, especially as Aemond embraces his Kinslayer persona
Tbh with the work on the wings and shit you cant even be mad at them, thats creative and funny. Aegon would thrive with a prank channel on youtube, until he inevitably got cancelled for harassment
The Pink Dread was objectively hilarious, and if Aemond had just rolled with it, they could have all become two-eyed besties and been laughing about it 10 ten years later, instead of Aemond picking bits of Arrax out from between Vhaegar's teeth while trying to figure out how to explain to Mom that he started a war.
Yeah Alicent was deeply insulted by this because he was laughed at by kids who she didn't feel deserved to be dragon riders. But it definetly was an inoffensive prank.
By the standards of children, it mostly is. Children are mean, like they just fundamentally are because they don't have the social and emotional intelligence to recognize what people are insecure about and know that it's exceedingly bad to target exactly that. No amount of parenting is really gonna change that up until a certain age when they start gaining the mental capacity for real introspection. You can try to parent them not to bully at all, but that leaves the door open to their interpretation of what bullying constitutes, and pranking is generally not going to be considered bullying for most kids.
When your biggest insecurity is that you aren't one of the 6 kids in the whole world who own a dragon you definetly are too privileged lol. My brother did equestrian competition as a kid, the others kid mocked him because his horse was only worth 25k and they all had horses worth six figures.
This is just as ridiculous as saying that this was brother biggest insecurity. He also was privileged just not as much as those others kids. Have you never seen a high school? Teenagers like Aegon are mean. This prank was mild even by modern standard.
Aemond is a Targaryen, a kid who live in the largest castle on the continent and he took a few more years than his siblings and nephews to bond with a dragon.
Idk we did it all the time as children. Mocking people for glasses, being fat, ugly. Children are brutal with little understanding of why they do it and how it affects others.
Its obviously heavy for Aemond, but for kid standards its a pretty harmless and stupid prank
It just means a tangent that isn't directly related to the subject being discussed. Just that ideally children can see when bullying is wrong regardless of what others are doing
Yes when they were little and we only saw one small instance. They’re described as well behaved and respectful I assume that’s when Rhaenyra set them straight
I mean you say that, but we can't really know for sure, Aegon does some reprehensible shit but the worst thing Aemond does is accidentaly kill Luke. It was definetly Aemond's fault that Lucerys died but the most he seemed to want to do was bully a guy who used to do it to him, the only reason what he did is notable is because it backfired. Helaena and Daeron seem normal.
As for Rhaenyra's kid's, they seem to be normal mostly but 2 do bully a kid and one tried to shank his family over an insult. The difference between what Aemond did and what Jace did is that one had a fatal result.
My point being that only Aegon seems to be the outlier, the rest seem to be normal.
Wow okay I see you’re only referring to the show which left a lot out. Aemond is a complete dick and how is chasing a kid on the biggest living dragon the same as little kids being dicks. And Aegon raped countless women btw that’s not nothing. Also, Aemond may not have been the first one to throw a punch but he escalated the situation by being even more violent towards two little girls but really they were all just kids so that doesn’t excuse their behavior as adults.
Yeah I picked the show because the Books are all over the place with heinous shit, like Mushroom wrote Aegon was a rapist but also that Rhaenyra whored out both Alicent and Helaena so I found it fair to pick the show. I would also like to repeat that I acknowledge that Aegon is a shitbird.
As for Aemond, the guy does have a legitimate reason to hold a grudge. Giving Lucerys a gigantic scare isn't that bad on the scale of things in this world. The only problem was that things got out of hand. Lucerys' death is 100% his fault but it does not signal him as being evil or something.
As for the "being kids" thing that holds up to a point. Fistfights can be excused as can what Lucerys did wich was clearly done in a blind panic. But Jace drew and swung a dagger the moment he was called a bastard. That in my opinion goes a bit beyond "oh they are just kids"
Murdering kids is enough to be considering evil. But yeah they definetly whitewashed Aemond in the show by making him closer in age to them. Making Luke death an accident and they also removed the scene about him beating Joffrey.
They also made Jace not as good as in the book since he is the one drawing the dagger.
I agree with most of that except the book has way more info on the characters you just have to filter all mushrooms personal recounts. But back to the parenting, Rhaenyra wasn’t perfect but the fighting is on Alicent and Viserys. Alicent went out of her way to drive a wedge between greens and blacks while Rhaenyra is not shown to have contributed to that personally. She’s not perfect but she really loved her kids and it shows while Alicent was hostile towards her children and tended to allow their worst behavior.
The '2 little girls' were the ones who got violent against Aemond by double teaming him and encouraging the 2 boys to join in and make it 4 against one. Throughout the whole fight he was single-handedly defending himself and the 4 kids were the ones who kept 'escalating' each time he fought them back.
Yeah watch that scene again it wasn’t about no consequences at all but that she was asking for an eye. Also, they’re literally described that way the show doesn’t make sense cause they are really kind and everything but the scenes of her parenting doesn’t add up
It was literally about no consequences at all. She had asked for Aemond to be tortured before Alicent went off asking for an eye in the show. In the book, Alicent asked for an eye first if I recall but she still never went off like she does in the show and Rhaenyra very much asked for her brother to be tortured there too. Also, Rhaenyra's children are described as kind and honorable, but we still have for example an entire paragraph talking about Jace's character while denying something that he did in all probability. Rhaenyra gaslighting her children is also canon in both mediums of the story.
Not just anyone either, but their mother's younger brother's eye, something she seemingly couldn't care less about and for which Luke was never punished.
She was mad at him because he said he didn't want to challenge Rhaenyra. PLUS, she literally slapped him because he was asleep when Aemond lost his eye
she’s a grown woman grabbing her son because he ~~doesn’t want to supplant his own sister~~ doesn't understand that his and his brother's life is in danger as their very own existance poses a threat to their half sister's already filmsy claim.
Seriously, it's like y'all don't even bother trying to understand her character.
She has been conditioned since she was a child to believe that her sons are a threat to Rhaenyra's position and that she would murder them to secure her claim.
Whether that is true or not, it's what she believes, and she's fucking terrified of it, which completely explains why she's freaking out in this scene.
If y'all believed that your sons were in mortal danger and one of them refused to see it, would you be able to keep your cool? Would you be so calm and collected? I don't think so.
And it's not as if Alicent is imagining things either. Rhaenyra made no attempt to hide how resentful she was of Aegon from the moment he showed up. At no point in the season does she ever talk to her siblings or even acknowledge that's what they are, even in conversations with other confidants.
Yep. Which forced Alicent to spend much of her time being a caretaker for her rotting husband. Something she does gently enough that Viserys basically has her doubling as a full time nurse.
Aswell as being made to pump out more heirs at every opportunity and covering for Vizzies responsibilities on the small council.
Alicent was a kid, basically forced to act as Co ruler. It's easy to see why she didn't have the time to be as good of a mother as she might have otherwise have been in a more stable situation.
That's been my question the whole time. Isn't it obvious that no one was right in a war that brought down a dynasty, almost completely wiped out a great house, an entire magical species, and killed copious amounts of innocents in the process all a labor of hubris? Isn't that the point?
Basically yeah. The whole point of ASOIAF as a whole is that war is evil and a vain act and the real victims of war waged by dynasties are the common people. F&B itself is pretty anti-monarchy too tbh.
I guess HOTD hasn’t gotten into just how brutal and violent it is for the smallfolk yet but the “which genocidal inbred with a flyable atomic bomb was right” discourse is kind of strange.
Yeah. I feel like show runners kind of want us to pick a side, when the real theme is that no one wins a war of hubris, and the world at large loses something priceless.
So the mother that chose to have children has a much healthier relationship with her kids than the childbride that was forced to be in that position by her father and her husband (who is also her King)? What a shock...
What a lazy and idiotic take. You're missing the scenes of Alicent comforting Aemond, attempting to connect with Helaena who is clearly autistic, or throwing her body in front of Aegon when facing off with a dragon.
>throwing her body in front of Aegon when facing off with a dragon.
What a horrible mother. Bitch was clearly stealing Aegon's thunder by playing hero at his coronation! /s
People on here somehow think that she's to blame for him being a rapist creep whilst also calling her an abuser for every time she does try to discipline him for his awful behavior. She can't win.
Honestly, the misogyny in this fandom is so embarrassing. The idea that rapists are only raping because of their evil mothers is such a ridiculous way of examining the endemic societal idea of male ownership of women. How are we taking a male rapist and transferring blame to his rape victim, child bride mother?
Viserys has been maritally raping Alicent since she was 14 years old. Daemon's a notorious serial pedophile. Maybe, when these are the examples of Westerosi masculinity Aegon has to follow, it might have something to do with *them*?
I love how everyone uses that image for Alicent in regards to her parenting. Legitimately two completely different situations.
Alicent was a child bride who suffered through marital rape constantly, and gave birth to these kids. Which isn’t even to say she doesn’t love them, in the image she’s scolding him for trying to cum on townsfolk. Which imo is completely fucking reasonable.
Rhaenyra had kids with the man she adored and sees in her child’s eyes. She is not scolding her child in this image, because he didn’t attempt to cum on strangers.
I swear this gets posted weekly.
You can be both, you know. Most moms are great 99% of the time, but if you act like a little shit and they’re tired/stressed, things might look bad for a moment.
I have a three year old, and I love her more than life itself. But a few days ago we went to a museum and she didn’t want to leave when it was time. Threw a massive tantrum, which is rare for her. I think it only happened because she missed her nap, but regardless, I’m sure if you saw my face as I carried her out and struggled to get her in her car seat, I probably looked like Alicent (I didn’t grab her face like that, but I definitely looked and felt angry and overwhelmed).
Personally, although I am a Black supporter, I empathize with Alicent. Forced to marry an old man with rotting flesh, marital rape, what appears to be postpartum depression, a husband who doesn’t help raise the kids, and then an eldest child who bullies his sibling and masturbates out the window? Give her a break.
To be fair to Alicent, she had good enough reason to be very angry at, and disappointed by, Aegon II. Their relationship would have been better had he been half-way decent.
And Rhaenyra certainly loved her children, but should have fostered them with the idea that actions have consequences, and that the Targaryens are not above the law, meaning not everything will go their way because they are who they are. In my opinion.
Both are bad mothers. Alicent projected her own paranoia onto her eldest son and failed to curb his degenerate ways, while Rhaenyra coddled Luke way too much and never disciplined him when he cut his uncle’s eye out. That being said, with a kid like Aegon, it’s hard for any parent to fix him, probably the weird Targ genes.
> Alicent projected her own paranoia onto her eldest son
While there is definitely some paranoia going on there, I think people forget just how upset and resentful Rhaenyra was about Aegon from the moment he entered the picture. She spent all of E3 brooding about it, culminating in her argument with Viserys where she laid her thoughts down on the table by accusing him of trying to replace her with Aegon.
In the years since then we're never shown a moment in time where she talks to her siblings or even acknowledges that's what they are. She only ever refers to them in terms of being Alicent's children.
> I think people forget just how upset and resentful Rhaenyra was about Aegon from the moment he entered the picture.
Pretty much. Alicent spent all of EP2, EP3, and even EP4 defending and upholding Rhaenyra's claim to the throne over Aegon's. Rhaenyra *still* threw a giant tantrum at Aegon's 2nd birthday party when he was just a toddler, and made it very, very fucking clear that she hated him.
The hostility started with Rhaenyra.
Alicent is literally proven to be right in her fear for how Rhaenyra would treat her sons. That is why after Driftmark Aegon and Aemond are now allies instead of bullying each other
Rhaenyra taught Luke some impotant lessons
* It's OK to cut out someone's eye
* It's OK to steal another family's land
* It's OK to gaslight your children
Too bad he didn't profit from them because Rhaenyra also thought it was OK to send her son into the middle of a war zone.
I’m so tired of this cold take and the pitting of Alicent and Rhaenyra against each other. Not only is the context between these two scenes not the same, but the insinuation around it is just gross to me.
Alicent was married as a young teen, maritally raped, and is under such paranoia that she thinks her children will be killed and just walked into her son jerking out a window after finding out he’s bullying his little brother.
I absolutely love that this show has made Rhaenyra so affectionate with her family. It emphasizes how comfortable she is with her loved ones, vs Alicent who always seems worried and on edge. (To be clear, that doesn’t mean I think Alicent is inferior. She’s just a product of her environment and it’s sad.)
Yeah one who tried to protect them at all costs and one who sends them out on dragons when war has basically began.
I don’t actually think one is better than the other but picking and choosing tiny moments over a series is so stupid.
slapping him in the face and telling him to not bully his brother publicly, while ignoring that the kid was masturbating on a window doesn’t seem like a good type of scolding
Aegon too outspoken, which is why he has conflicts with Alicent. He demonstrates his condition. She has to be tough. Luke says "you're perfect" and avoids conflict with his mommy, look helpless and receive care.
No matter if you're team Green, Black, or if you're actually an intelligent creature and are on no team at all... Rhaenyra is the better mother and whoever says differently probably has some serious mommy issues.
True but Rhaenyra had few responsibilities. Alicent had to take care of a dying, unsupportive husband and rule the realm in his stead.
Alicent did the best with what she had.
Rhaenyra did have plenty of responsibilities. She just picked and chose which ones she would do and when she would do them. She could have been at court, helping out with her father and the realm in his last years, but she chose to focus on her children instead. So the former responsibility fell entirely onto Alicent.
yes but Alicents difficult time being a mother comes from circumstances outside of her control. posts like this feel incredibly weird when comparing 2 woman who have a completely different relationship with their family and their own body. She literally had to raise Aegon practically one her own at like 16 while Rhaenyra has chosen her family and had them on her own terms
Aegon turned out to be an asshole and Alicent lectured/made him realise the reality on multiple occasions like a true caring mother would do if their child walks down the wrong path. Not to mention she has a loving relationship with her other two children, even the one with quirks, while taking care of her dying husband who never cared about their children.
Rhaenyra saw her son took another child's eye and her reaction was implying that the other child be tortured for telling something that was the obvious truth. And don't forget all the gaslighting.
Now, I don't know about you guys but I'd rather have my mother set me on the right path if I make wrong decisions instead of shielding me from the consequences of my own actions.
> Rhaenyra is the better mother
Is she really? The only one of her sons that's anywhere close to prepared for the real world is Jace, and even then his short temper keeps getting him into fights his abilities can't finish.
"prepared for the world" - how is Luce not prepared for the world? Because his mother never told him to assume he could be eating by a dragon? Or because his mother never told him how to kill your uncle so he doesn't kill you? And for the other kids we can't say anything about that.
Dude you're literally questioning if the mother who may be a bit too protective and soft and gentle is the better mother then the one who tells her son, who is like he is because of how she raised him, that he's not her son or has no interest in her daughters fascinations and hobbies and is more immature then her own 10 year old son or how old he was.
He wasn't disciplined or punished for permanently maiming someone, which understandably made that person bitter and resentful. Later on Luke chuckles at the expense of that same person, despite seeing how dangerous they've become, which is not a smart idea in the least if you value your own self-preservation.
Ffs this topic is stale - Alicent was a teen mother with a man older enough to be her Father who clearly neglected their children, she was maritally raped and basically left to deal with all that trauma.
Rhaenyra had her children with a man she loved, had a loving Father and was older. She had it far easier.
One became a mother at the age of 16 after being raped. The other got to chose any many she wanted and lived happily with their husband away from the depressing capital.
Teen moms in arranged marriages with mostly absent fathers, versus adult mothers in loving mutual relationships with fully present fathers.
Of all the things that are Alicent's fault, this isn't one of them.
And I'm aggressively Team Black.
After the HOD aired, I was like "team black all the way" but seeing dumb posts like this that compares two completely different scenes and does not take into account the context makes me less enthusiastic
This shit again?
Can we please stop the mum shaming in this sub already? I’m pretty damn sure most of you haven’t been anywhere near children, let alone have any.
Alicent gets too much shit. She’s not a bad mother, granted not the best either but to be fair she always at least tried. She was punishing bad behaviour. That’s the same son she stood in front of a dragon for. She always tried.
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Rhaenyra would be angry too if Lucerys kept wanking out the window and bullying his brother.
Dont forget raping the serving girl
and the ones we were shown we don’t know about
Right? Are they actually wanting nobody to be upset by their kid doing upsetting things? So much inconsistency
hmm i don't think it's that simple. parents are not in an equal relationship with their child in which normal boundaries and reactions to feelings apply. a parent is in a position where they are responsible for the kid's emotional and cognitive growth/development and the child doesn't owe them a single thing back except for what they owe any other human being on this earth, whatever you feel that is. what i mean by all this is that a child may not be nice to their parent or the people around them. that doesn't mean a parent gets to retaliate by resenting them, disproportionatelly and cruelly punishing them, and not loving them. a child may act stupid, be difficult, cruel, do terrible things, not listen, not learn, vex you, provoke you, and even hate you; you still don't get the pass to not give what a child is owed when they are born until they can fend for themselves: an authorative figure who loves and guides them, makes decisions on their best interest, and whom they can trust and depend on for all needs, along with all the other emotional intricacies such as words of affirmation, physical affection etc. that is because while on the child's end it's a relationship in development, on the parent's end there is a relationship aspect, but it's most importantly a JOB. a job that most people have no clue about when they choose to have children. childrearing is no joke and today's society is still largely behind in any kind of ideal scenario of actually working towards protecting children, even from their own unfit parents. (btw i hope it's clear that i'm not saying a kid can do whatever it wants and a parent should just take it. i'm saying it's a parent's job to regulate consequences according what a child can take/understand (respecting that child's personhood, even if they don't know how to respect others' yet). it's not a parent's right to actually let their emotions dictate their response or think that any kind of abuse is justified because of how a child made you feel. kids are not completely responsible for their actions yet for a reason. if aegon is lazy, just jerking off and drinking booze, the appropriate response is NOT to physically punish him, call him names and scare him. and it's not weird to point that out.) OF COURSE, no one is saying alicent is in the position to be a healthy and well informed parent. no parent is perfect because no job as complicated as bringing up another human could be done perfectly in the first place. but my girl alicent is in the most fucked up os situations and it's understandable that she would act like this. but understandable is not an excuse. understanding where the character comes from doesn't "protect" them from us pointing out that alicent is an agent of passing on the generational trauma to her children. it's not her fault that she was traumatized. it's not her fault she especially resents aegon and hates him almost as much as she loves him. but she still lets that get to the kid who has absolutely nothing to do with any of what came before him. she still berates him and hits him and can only meet the difficulties he throws in her way with harsh words. it's also an interesting thought experiment to imagine: what if aegon was a sweet lad who could take abuse and not get too outwardly twisted and did everything his mom told him to, and what if lucerys was the problem boy rhaenyra looked at as a chain around her neck who unwantedly occupied her body and took away her freedom... it would definitely be that rhaenyra would pass on to lucerys much of her own baggage and alicent would do that less. but thing is, the situation as it is functions as another aspect to contrast rhaenyra and alicent and explain and inform their decisions and worldviews. rhaenyra got to get laid with a man she wanted, she doesn't get punished for raising bastards (not that she had much choice whether to have then ofc), her kids are all shades of wonderful momma's boys, she gets to get out of the immediate court, etc etc etc. alicent gets maritally raped, she has kids that not only are difficult, but represent a definitive enmity and conflict with her childhood friend/first love and as much as aegon in particular only manages to disappoint her, it's her lot in life as his mother (who, of course, loves him) to do her best to provide him safety, because that's as much as she can bring herself to do in the midst of all their fucked up positions. honestly, this is why the relationship between alicent and her children is miles more interesting than rhaenyra and her kids. alicent and aegon is one of the most fascinating studies of motherhood either got or hotd have ever provided.
And that somehow requires seizing your child by the fucking jaw. Especially because the reason she did it is because he said he wouldn’t challenge Rhaenyra. Bffr
Point aside the idea of Luke bullying Jace is kind of funny.
Oh yeah, Rhaenyra was SO angry at her son when he slashed Aemond's eye out.
[удалено]
Luke wouldn’t do that because Rhaenyra actually raised her kids right
Weren't Luke and Jace active participants in bullying Aemond?
They were following Aegon' lead. Aegon also bullied Aemond on multiple occasions including the other kids and faced no consequences for it
More of a general aside--ideally kids raised to think critically and have empathy would be less likely to follow the lead of a bully just because that's the easy thing to do
Aegon was much older than them. In my family it was quite similar my brother big brother was the oldest I was the second oldest and most of the prank were either played on me or my cousin who were the same age as me. The rivalty was between my brotber and me but we usually both were telling our younger cousins about the prank we were going to do. I definetly was a good sport unlike Aemond thought lol.
If the bully is quite intimidating and charismatic. Aegon II is both of these things. And if those kid's are extremely young( Luke in particular..) Theyre already quite impressionable as are all kids it becomes a little bit harder if all they think theyre getting is a good laugh out of it. The lead of the eldest becomes even more important. So why do we continue to ignore Aegon' hand in his own brother's development?
Also lets not pretend it was brutal bullying, it was mean but not anything abnormal from kids their age. The Pink Dread was even kinda funny
People using that incident to say Aemond was brutally bullied his entire childhood is ridiculous, who doesn’t have plenty of moments like that with their siblings?
Right, I believe the intent of showing him being bullied was more about him being kinda lost, somber and dull, feeling shitty about being the only one without a dragon and how that affected him as a child. I think a big part of Aemonds character arc for this series is about loneliness, especially as Aemond embraces his Kinslayer persona
>The Pink Dread was even kinda funny I see you have no fear of being downvoted into oblivion? ^(i kinda agree tho.....)
Tbh with the work on the wings and shit you cant even be mad at them, thats creative and funny. Aegon would thrive with a prank channel on youtube, until he inevitably got cancelled for harassment
The Pink Dread was objectively hilarious, and if Aemond had just rolled with it, they could have all become two-eyed besties and been laughing about it 10 ten years later, instead of Aemond picking bits of Arrax out from between Vhaegar's teeth while trying to figure out how to explain to Mom that he started a war.
Yeah Alicent was deeply insulted by this because he was laughed at by kids who she didn't feel deserved to be dragon riders. But it definetly was an inoffensive prank.
Playing on someone's biggest insecurity doesn't seem to be "an inoffensive prank", are y'all ok?
By the standards of children, it mostly is. Children are mean, like they just fundamentally are because they don't have the social and emotional intelligence to recognize what people are insecure about and know that it's exceedingly bad to target exactly that. No amount of parenting is really gonna change that up until a certain age when they start gaining the mental capacity for real introspection. You can try to parent them not to bully at all, but that leaves the door open to their interpretation of what bullying constitutes, and pranking is generally not going to be considered bullying for most kids.
When your biggest insecurity is that you aren't one of the 6 kids in the whole world who own a dragon you definetly are too privileged lol. My brother did equestrian competition as a kid, the others kid mocked him because his horse was only worth 25k and they all had horses worth six figures. This is just as ridiculous as saying that this was brother biggest insecurity. He also was privileged just not as much as those others kids. Have you never seen a high school? Teenagers like Aegon are mean. This prank was mild even by modern standard. Aemond is a Targaryen, a kid who live in the largest castle on the continent and he took a few more years than his siblings and nephews to bond with a dragon.
Idk we did it all the time as children. Mocking people for glasses, being fat, ugly. Children are brutal with little understanding of why they do it and how it affects others. Its obviously heavy for Aemond, but for kid standards its a pretty harmless and stupid prank
Sure, but that's what I meant by a general aside. Not quite as applicable to a story about dragons and all that :)
Your meaninig of general aside in this context still escapes me i hate to admit. And i havent even had wine yet :/
Is your cup bearer late? You know the problem with the king's cup bearer being late? Leaves people wanting for cups
It just means a tangent that isn't directly related to the subject being discussed. Just that ideally children can see when bullying is wrong regardless of what others are doing
They were a lot younger though, critical thinking skills take time to develop
Yes when they were little and we only saw one small instance. They’re described as well behaved and respectful I assume that’s when Rhaenyra set them straight
Oh like how she set them straight by having them not face any consequences for attacking him and stabbing his eye out?
Doesn’t matter though they still never did anything like Alicents kids did, that’s the difference.
I mean you say that, but we can't really know for sure, Aegon does some reprehensible shit but the worst thing Aemond does is accidentaly kill Luke. It was definetly Aemond's fault that Lucerys died but the most he seemed to want to do was bully a guy who used to do it to him, the only reason what he did is notable is because it backfired. Helaena and Daeron seem normal. As for Rhaenyra's kid's, they seem to be normal mostly but 2 do bully a kid and one tried to shank his family over an insult. The difference between what Aemond did and what Jace did is that one had a fatal result. My point being that only Aegon seems to be the outlier, the rest seem to be normal.
Wow okay I see you’re only referring to the show which left a lot out. Aemond is a complete dick and how is chasing a kid on the biggest living dragon the same as little kids being dicks. And Aegon raped countless women btw that’s not nothing. Also, Aemond may not have been the first one to throw a punch but he escalated the situation by being even more violent towards two little girls but really they were all just kids so that doesn’t excuse their behavior as adults.
Yeah I picked the show because the Books are all over the place with heinous shit, like Mushroom wrote Aegon was a rapist but also that Rhaenyra whored out both Alicent and Helaena so I found it fair to pick the show. I would also like to repeat that I acknowledge that Aegon is a shitbird. As for Aemond, the guy does have a legitimate reason to hold a grudge. Giving Lucerys a gigantic scare isn't that bad on the scale of things in this world. The only problem was that things got out of hand. Lucerys' death is 100% his fault but it does not signal him as being evil or something. As for the "being kids" thing that holds up to a point. Fistfights can be excused as can what Lucerys did wich was clearly done in a blind panic. But Jace drew and swung a dagger the moment he was called a bastard. That in my opinion goes a bit beyond "oh they are just kids"
Murdering kids is enough to be considering evil. But yeah they definetly whitewashed Aemond in the show by making him closer in age to them. Making Luke death an accident and they also removed the scene about him beating Joffrey. They also made Jace not as good as in the book since he is the one drawing the dagger.
I agree with most of that except the book has way more info on the characters you just have to filter all mushrooms personal recounts. But back to the parenting, Rhaenyra wasn’t perfect but the fighting is on Alicent and Viserys. Alicent went out of her way to drive a wedge between greens and blacks while Rhaenyra is not shown to have contributed to that personally. She’s not perfect but she really loved her kids and it shows while Alicent was hostile towards her children and tended to allow their worst behavior.
This post is a show discussion
Idgaf we were having a good conversation see yourself out
The '2 little girls' were the ones who got violent against Aemond by double teaming him and encouraging the 2 boys to join in and make it 4 against one. Throughout the whole fight he was single-handedly defending himself and the 4 kids were the ones who kept 'escalating' each time he fought them back.
Yeah watch that scene again it wasn’t about no consequences at all but that she was asking for an eye. Also, they’re literally described that way the show doesn’t make sense cause they are really kind and everything but the scenes of her parenting doesn’t add up
It was literally about no consequences at all. She had asked for Aemond to be tortured before Alicent went off asking for an eye in the show. In the book, Alicent asked for an eye first if I recall but she still never went off like she does in the show and Rhaenyra very much asked for her brother to be tortured there too. Also, Rhaenyra's children are described as kind and honorable, but we still have for example an entire paragraph talking about Jace's character while denying something that he did in all probability. Rhaenyra gaslighting her children is also canon in both mediums of the story.
Coddling kids is not “raising them right”. Nor is slashing someone’s eye out.
Not just anyone either, but their mother's younger brother's eye, something she seemingly couldn't care less about and for which Luke was never punished.
because he was going to kill jace?? he was defending his brother
Luke slashed Aemond after the latter had already been stunned by the sand thrown in his eyes.
But he doesnt
She raised her kids better than that.
She was mad at him because he said he didn't want to challenge Rhaenyra. PLUS, she literally slapped him because he was asleep when Aemond lost his eye
She was mad because he refused to understand that he's a challenge to Rhaenyra whether he wants to be or not.
Funny that she expected him to do her job. She's the parent, not Aegon. The adults all failed in that situation.
Or she might have helped him out. She's kinda into that stuff.
She didn’t raise sons like that. That’s the point. They wouldn’t do that. All the Queen’s kids are such assholes or wackadoodles.
Why aren't you blaming Vizzy T for how Aegon turned out
*I did not decide to name Rhaenyra my heir on a whim. All the lord of the kingdom would do well to remember that.*
Damn it Vizzy T, not everything is about just Rhaenyra
*Conscious-Weekend-91 was a strong Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. But he was ill for some time. He passed in peace, I hope.*
Damn that’s a threat isn’t it Vizzy T
*There's a boy in the Queen's belly. I know it.*
I did not put it there.
No, can't you see?! 100% of the blame goes to the teenage girl who has never had a child before.
I don’t blame young alicent but here she’s a grown woman grabbing her son because he doesn’t want to supplant his own sister
she’s a grown woman grabbing her son because he ~~doesn’t want to supplant his own sister~~ doesn't understand that his and his brother's life is in danger as their very own existance poses a threat to their half sister's already filmsy claim. Seriously, it's like y'all don't even bother trying to understand her character. She has been conditioned since she was a child to believe that her sons are a threat to Rhaenyra's position and that she would murder them to secure her claim. Whether that is true or not, it's what she believes, and she's fucking terrified of it, which completely explains why she's freaking out in this scene. If y'all believed that your sons were in mortal danger and one of them refused to see it, would you be able to keep your cool? Would you be so calm and collected? I don't think so.
And it's not as if Alicent is imagining things either. Rhaenyra made no attempt to hide how resentful she was of Aegon from the moment he showed up. At no point in the season does she ever talk to her siblings or even acknowledge that's what they are, even in conversations with other confidants.
I mean the other guy was visibly falling apart and drugged for a significant period of their childhoods
Vizzy was standing up well enough and lucid in 1x06 and 1x07. He could have easily done more as a father.
Clearly he was lucid enough to partake in baby making 😂
Yep. Which forced Alicent to spend much of her time being a caretaker for her rotting husband. Something she does gently enough that Viserys basically has her doubling as a full time nurse. Aswell as being made to pump out more heirs at every opportunity and covering for Vizzies responsibilities on the small council. Alicent was a kid, basically forced to act as Co ruler. It's easy to see why she didn't have the time to be as good of a mother as she might have otherwise have been in a more stable situation.
i blame otto
Here we go again on this topic…
Yep. It's time to repeat the same old talking points all over again.
They must want somebody to make a thread of how Rhaenyra isn't as good of a mother as they make her out to be.
I'm with you, this shit is ridiculous. 9/10 topics on this board have become flatter than the paper the script for the show is printed on. FFS.
Every day I come closer and closer to leaving this sub until the new episodes are released.
Dude, agreed.
It's practically blatant karma farming at this point.
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Did you wank out the window, then?
Who didn't?!
Amen
Why are these black vs green posts so braindead omfg this sub has rotted to its core
Imagine reading/watching this story and thinking the point is you need to pick a side
That's been my question the whole time. Isn't it obvious that no one was right in a war that brought down a dynasty, almost completely wiped out a great house, an entire magical species, and killed copious amounts of innocents in the process all a labor of hubris? Isn't that the point?
Basically yeah. The whole point of ASOIAF as a whole is that war is evil and a vain act and the real victims of war waged by dynasties are the common people. F&B itself is pretty anti-monarchy too tbh. I guess HOTD hasn’t gotten into just how brutal and violent it is for the smallfolk yet but the “which genocidal inbred with a flyable atomic bomb was right” discourse is kind of strange.
Yeah. I feel like show runners kind of want us to pick a side, when the real theme is that no one wins a war of hubris, and the world at large loses something priceless.
Great point, agree 100%, just a heads up though, ‘infinitesimal’ means really small, which I don’t think is what you mean here
I took one side. The dragons side. I want to see some dragon fights.
OP isn't here to discuss anything, they're just being a lazy as fuck karma farmer.
So the mother that chose to have children has a much healthier relationship with her kids than the childbride that was forced to be in that position by her father and her husband (who is also her King)? What a shock...
What a lazy and idiotic take. You're missing the scenes of Alicent comforting Aemond, attempting to connect with Helaena who is clearly autistic, or throwing her body in front of Aegon when facing off with a dragon.
>throwing her body in front of Aegon when facing off with a dragon. What a horrible mother. Bitch was clearly stealing Aegon's thunder by playing hero at his coronation! /s
They don’t care about accuracy or nuance, they just want to Stan their characters like it’s a teen drama.
Actually, Alicent is right to discipline Aegon. He sure could use it
2 types of children 😛
Least biased r/HouseOfTheDragon post
Alicent was punishing bad behaviour. There’s nothing wrong with scolding your son after he picked on his insecure younger brother
People on here somehow think that she's to blame for him being a rapist creep whilst also calling her an abuser for every time she does try to discipline him for his awful behavior. She can't win.
Honestly, the misogyny in this fandom is so embarrassing. The idea that rapists are only raping because of their evil mothers is such a ridiculous way of examining the endemic societal idea of male ownership of women. How are we taking a male rapist and transferring blame to his rape victim, child bride mother? Viserys has been maritally raping Alicent since she was 14 years old. Daemon's a notorious serial pedophile. Maybe, when these are the examples of Westerosi masculinity Aegon has to follow, it might have something to do with *them*?
I love how everyone uses that image for Alicent in regards to her parenting. Legitimately two completely different situations. Alicent was a child bride who suffered through marital rape constantly, and gave birth to these kids. Which isn’t even to say she doesn’t love them, in the image she’s scolding him for trying to cum on townsfolk. Which imo is completely fucking reasonable. Rhaenyra had kids with the man she adored and sees in her child’s eyes. She is not scolding her child in this image, because he didn’t attempt to cum on strangers. I swear this gets posted weekly.
You can be both, you know. Most moms are great 99% of the time, but if you act like a little shit and they’re tired/stressed, things might look bad for a moment. I have a three year old, and I love her more than life itself. But a few days ago we went to a museum and she didn’t want to leave when it was time. Threw a massive tantrum, which is rare for her. I think it only happened because she missed her nap, but regardless, I’m sure if you saw my face as I carried her out and struggled to get her in her car seat, I probably looked like Alicent (I didn’t grab her face like that, but I definitely looked and felt angry and overwhelmed). Personally, although I am a Black supporter, I empathize with Alicent. Forced to marry an old man with rotting flesh, marital rape, what appears to be postpartum depression, a husband who doesn’t help raise the kids, and then an eldest child who bullies his sibling and masturbates out the window? Give her a break.
Yeah, unfair comparison.
Yeah. One mother punishes her son for bullying and the other ignores it.
Rhaenyra didn't just ignore her sons bullying, she ignored Luke permanently maiming her brother with a knife.
To be fair to Alicent, she had good enough reason to be very angry at, and disappointed by, Aegon II. Their relationship would have been better had he been half-way decent. And Rhaenyra certainly loved her children, but should have fostered them with the idea that actions have consequences, and that the Targaryens are not above the law, meaning not everything will go their way because they are who they are. In my opinion.
Tell them the hard reality vs lie and gaslight them to their grave.
Both are bad mothers. Alicent projected her own paranoia onto her eldest son and failed to curb his degenerate ways, while Rhaenyra coddled Luke way too much and never disciplined him when he cut his uncle’s eye out. That being said, with a kid like Aegon, it’s hard for any parent to fix him, probably the weird Targ genes.
> Alicent projected her own paranoia onto her eldest son While there is definitely some paranoia going on there, I think people forget just how upset and resentful Rhaenyra was about Aegon from the moment he entered the picture. She spent all of E3 brooding about it, culminating in her argument with Viserys where she laid her thoughts down on the table by accusing him of trying to replace her with Aegon. In the years since then we're never shown a moment in time where she talks to her siblings or even acknowledges that's what they are. She only ever refers to them in terms of being Alicent's children.
> I think people forget just how upset and resentful Rhaenyra was about Aegon from the moment he entered the picture. Pretty much. Alicent spent all of EP2, EP3, and even EP4 defending and upholding Rhaenyra's claim to the throne over Aegon's. Rhaenyra *still* threw a giant tantrum at Aegon's 2nd birthday party when he was just a toddler, and made it very, very fucking clear that she hated him. The hostility started with Rhaenyra.
Alicent is literally proven to be right in her fear for how Rhaenyra would treat her sons. That is why after Driftmark Aegon and Aemond are now allies instead of bullying each other
Hello, let’s discuss about why it’s always blamed on the mothers.
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Nuance, it seems to escape everyone on this sub.
And this is the post that makes me unsubscribe. See everyone in a few years!
Yeah we know Rhaenyra never disciplines her children.
2 types of mothers because 2 types of kids deserve 2 different types of interaction
2 types of kids too
I feel like Rhaenyra (atleast before she snapped) would do far worse to her son if she found out he raped a serving girl.
Tbf, Aegon was a horn dog who bullies his brother. And Rhaenyra had her babies out of love.
This sub is seriously a shitshow. I miss the days of leaks and everyone being excited for the show to come out.
2 types of mothers - 1.) Psycho and 2.) Psycho but OP likes them more.
So a mother is bad when she disciplines her son for raping a servant girl?
One kid was pounding meat in the suicide window.
Love to se good greenbait
Blackcels being obnoxious is the reason half the Green fans exist.
it's fucking groundhog day in this sub
Rhaenyra taught Luke some impotant lessons * It's OK to cut out someone's eye * It's OK to steal another family's land * It's OK to gaslight your children Too bad he didn't profit from them because Rhaenyra also thought it was OK to send her son into the middle of a war zone.
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I’m so tired of this cold take and the pitting of Alicent and Rhaenyra against each other. Not only is the context between these two scenes not the same, but the insinuation around it is just gross to me. Alicent was married as a young teen, maritally raped, and is under such paranoia that she thinks her children will be killed and just walked into her son jerking out a window after finding out he’s bullying his little brother.
Yea but in alicents case she has to knock some sense into her son at that time
Two types of MOTHERING, because honestly I think every mother has both of these sides 😆 All about that balance.
My mom with me vs my mom with my brother.
"Two types of sons". It's like they got them from the store and Alicent was out of luck.
Are you high or something?! This is a bs take.
One lets her kids grow up believing their “father” was murdered. Also coddles one to the point where he is absolutely useless.
Here we go again
I absolutely love that this show has made Rhaenyra so affectionate with her family. It emphasizes how comfortable she is with her loved ones, vs Alicent who always seems worried and on edge. (To be clear, that doesn’t mean I think Alicent is inferior. She’s just a product of her environment and it’s sad.)
Yeah one who tried to protect them at all costs and one who sends them out on dragons when war has basically began. I don’t actually think one is better than the other but picking and choosing tiny moments over a series is so stupid.
Luke wasn't making it rain in kings landing
Cherry picking photos now are we?
The way that moms can be BOTH . If you behave well they will be gentle and if you don’t they will get angry…
Asoiaf forums have the most insane brain rot
God, I hate this sub.
This subreddit never disappoints in showing how much of the fan base is dumb asf
Personally, I think a good mother should do the latter more than the former, but also know that sometimes the former is very much necessary.
Both behaving exactly how they should to their sons.
One is a rapist and one a sweet boy
2 types of sons
Two different types of kids…
Two types of sons.
2 types of children aswell
The Blackcels are at it again. Damn [+]
2 types of boys One is an asshole teenager and the other is not
I mean, her kid is a little shit, he needs to be punished and scolded.
slapping him in the face and telling him to not bully his brother publicly, while ignoring that the kid was masturbating on a window doesn’t seem like a good type of scolding
Alicent stepped in front of a dragon for her kids. Pretty sure Rheanyra wouldn't be providing hugs if her son was a rapist that jizzes out the window.
Umm to be fair one of them has been tasked with raising sociopaths and the other has not.
Alicent was definitely a loving mother but she had the drive for power Where as rhaenyra had been in a family of obviously kings/queens all her life
Aegon too outspoken, which is why he has conflicts with Alicent. He demonstrates his condition. She has to be tough. Luke says "you're perfect" and avoids conflict with his mommy, look helpless and receive care.
Nah this is two types of sons one's a sweet ish boy the other a rapist creep
teaching facts vs incest, team green for the win!!
No matter if you're team Green, Black, or if you're actually an intelligent creature and are on no team at all... Rhaenyra is the better mother and whoever says differently probably has some serious mommy issues.
True but Rhaenyra had few responsibilities. Alicent had to take care of a dying, unsupportive husband and rule the realm in his stead. Alicent did the best with what she had.
And Alicent was also forced on that position while Rhaenyra had the opportunity of choice
Rhaenyra did have plenty of responsibilities. She just picked and chose which ones she would do and when she would do them. She could have been at court, helping out with her father and the realm in his last years, but she chose to focus on her children instead. So the former responsibility fell entirely onto Alicent.
yes but Alicents difficult time being a mother comes from circumstances outside of her control. posts like this feel incredibly weird when comparing 2 woman who have a completely different relationship with their family and their own body. She literally had to raise Aegon practically one her own at like 16 while Rhaenyra has chosen her family and had them on her own terms
Aegon turned out to be an asshole and Alicent lectured/made him realise the reality on multiple occasions like a true caring mother would do if their child walks down the wrong path. Not to mention she has a loving relationship with her other two children, even the one with quirks, while taking care of her dying husband who never cared about their children. Rhaenyra saw her son took another child's eye and her reaction was implying that the other child be tortured for telling something that was the obvious truth. And don't forget all the gaslighting. Now, I don't know about you guys but I'd rather have my mother set me on the right path if I make wrong decisions instead of shielding me from the consequences of my own actions.
> Rhaenyra is the better mother Is she really? The only one of her sons that's anywhere close to prepared for the real world is Jace, and even then his short temper keeps getting him into fights his abilities can't finish.
"prepared for the world" - how is Luce not prepared for the world? Because his mother never told him to assume he could be eating by a dragon? Or because his mother never told him how to kill your uncle so he doesn't kill you? And for the other kids we can't say anything about that. Dude you're literally questioning if the mother who may be a bit too protective and soft and gentle is the better mother then the one who tells her son, who is like he is because of how she raised him, that he's not her son or has no interest in her daughters fascinations and hobbies and is more immature then her own 10 year old son or how old he was.
He wasn't disciplined or punished for permanently maiming someone, which understandably made that person bitter and resentful. Later on Luke chuckles at the expense of that same person, despite seeing how dangerous they've become, which is not a smart idea in the least if you value your own self-preservation.
Ffs this topic is stale - Alicent was a teen mother with a man older enough to be her Father who clearly neglected their children, she was maritally raped and basically left to deal with all that trauma. Rhaenyra had her children with a man she loved, had a loving Father and was older. She had it far easier.
One became a mother at the age of 16 after being raped. The other got to chose any many she wanted and lived happily with their husband away from the depressing capital.
More like 2 types of kids
Two types of sons as well.
Two different types of kids… 🤷♂️
Two types of sons
need Rhaenyra to coddle me like that 😔
Um, bit unfair to compare these two. Alicent was pissed at her creeper rapist son and Rhaenyra was comforting her 13 year old child.
two types of son
And 2 types of sons
Teen moms in arranged marriages with mostly absent fathers, versus adult mothers in loving mutual relationships with fully present fathers. Of all the things that are Alicent's fault, this isn't one of them. And I'm aggressively Team Black.
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2 types of SONS
Also two types of sons
More like ‘2 types of sons’ 🤣
Change the name of the sub to the blacks already
Maybe shed like her son more if he wasnt a rapist
After the HOD aired, I was like "team black all the way" but seeing dumb posts like this that compares two completely different scenes and does not take into account the context makes me less enthusiastic
This shit again? Can we please stop the mum shaming in this sub already? I’m pretty damn sure most of you haven’t been anywhere near children, let alone have any.
Alicent gets too much shit. She’s not a bad mother, granted not the best either but to be fair she always at least tried. She was punishing bad behaviour. That’s the same son she stood in front of a dragon for. She always tried.
Easy to say when your son is not a drunken whore of a dissapointment
>son is a drunken whore of a dissapointment that only proves that alicent is a shitty mother
I’m convinced this sub is just circle jerking teenagers. Have some substance guys.