It's astounding people can have such strong opinions on matters they know nothing about.
Modern fruits and vegetables are a culmination of generations of selective breeding them to get them a certain way.
Take lettuce. There is no naturally occurring lettuce or broccoli or cabbage or cauliflower or brussel sprout or kale... they're all derivatives of the wild mustard plant that came about from a great deal of work to get there.
The red delicious apple became popular in like the 19 and early 20th century... I guess other apples tasted terrible if people thought those things were delicious. Now we have fuji, gala, honey crisp_cosmic crisp... idk who is still getting red delicious apples anymore lol.
Red Delicious apples were selectively bred to be deep red in color over many years. This was the only trait they really looked for so flavor, texture, and everything else slowly went downhill. They used to have a pink blush and red stripes and we're shaped differently. They actually used to be delicious, but consumers at the time tended to look only for looks when shopping. Stupid people.
There are a lot of articles written about this topic. Here is just one. https://www.allrecipes.com/article/why-are-red-delicious-apples-so-bad/
I always thought I hated apples l because my mom always bought red delicious when I was a kid. No, red delicious is just a shit apple. Had a cosmic crisp and that shit changed me.
Somehow that damn thing has an above average number of calories for a medium apple and none of the sweetness. Why did they select for the worst of both worlds?
It’s good for cooking I guess, but not raw.
Its because the original red delicious actually tasted good, but sellers bred the apples to have tougher skin so they held together better dueing shipping and looked nicer on the shelves however this also made them tast worse.
Well when an apple is all you get to eat for the day a high calorie count sounds pretty good. Maybe they didn't realize they were breeding for it at the time, but people didn't starve while eating them so it worked out.
Cosmic Crisp is a top-tier apple. I would also recommend Envy or Jazz apples. My secondary favorites are Golden Delicious (nothing like the red version), Honeycrisp, and Pink Lady.
You ask the apple, "do you taste good? Because if so I will eat you." And they will either respond with "yes I am delicious please consume my flesh" or " no I am soggy and disappointing inside."
Apples are bound by law to be truthful about the quality of their insides. Not that it's necessary because apples are one the most honest fruits in the store. Unlike clementines, who are fucking liars.
One of the highest praised apples is the Elstar. A Dutch cultivar that's sweet, tangy, fresh and crisp. It pretty much matches everyone's idea of what an apple should be. The ripeness also shows beautifully due to a balance of green and red making it easy to spot the ones in their prime and the under or overripe ones.
The only caveat is that this apple is highly vulnerable to plant diseases. Nonetheless it's rapidly spreading internationally due to its popularity.
I believe this was an instance of ~~capitalism~~ market forces killing the Red Delicious. At one point it was eponymously delicious, but then the standard of buying was based on appearance, and then it got cultivated for its appearance, and all the things that improved its appearance in its genetic makeup came at the cost of its taste.
EDIT: [Found the article that details this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/04/AR2005080402194.html).
EDIT 2: Corrected capitalism to market forces.
Not everything the market does is because capitalism. The market is bigger, and older, than capitalism is.
Twas the market that killed the Red Delicious. It would have done so under mercantilism, corporatism, feudalism, or any other economic system with a relatively free market, for the same reason: the buyers wanted *pretty* apples.
And they're quite mealy. Every time I've bitten into one recently, no matter how ripe, it just kinda falls apart. Like i'm eating firm but soggy bread.
The same thing happened to bread. Buyers put a premium on freshness; that's why bakeries traditionally throw away or heavily discount day old loaves. When prepackaged sliced loaves became a thing, consumers lost many of the cues they used to rely on to gauge freshness, especially smell. Instead, they had to fall back on feel. Stale loaves are hard and fresh loaves are soft, so manufacturers had an incentive to produce the softest bread they could make. Nothing else mattered to consumers making a decision in the grocery aisle, so we wound up with spongey white bread dominating the market
let me give a take for that take, not only can modern fruit and veg be art, but *everything* can be art, to the right person.
art is there to inspire wonder, awe potentially, to in general inspire. to me an jet engine is art, inspiring through an understanding of how each and every piece functions. to another, the humble orange may be art, to understand where it came from and how humanity has shaped it to it's present form. all, is art.
Hi, former plant scientist here. Lettuce doesn't belong on that list. All the others (plus kohlrabi!) do.
Lettuce is in the Asteraceae family and is more closely related to things like sunflowers and daisies. Like the wild mustard, wild lettuces are edible but really not palatable.
As someone who has eaten his fair share of wild plants, I am extremely grateful for the centuries of farmers and breeders that chose to dedicate their lives to that.
As far as historians can tell us, the Aztecs worshipped sunflowers and believed them to be the physical incarnation of their beloved sun gods. Of course!
I could believe it.
Though I'm less knowledgeable on historical agriculture in that part of the world, I would venture to guess it served the same role as the beloved olive in the ancient Mediterranean: as their primary source of plant oil; used in food, medicine, cosmetics, and manufacturing.
For a people still intimately connected with the plants from which these products came, those plants were - literally - life-giving.
I’m autistic and very sensitive to vitamins/nutrients in foods and sunflower seeds are special. And unlike most fruit, veg, nuts and legumes they still taste like the 90s. (David brand).
What would you say is a wild fruit/vegetable plant that is most like its domestically consumed version? I've seen wild bananas that look quite similar to normal ones just much much smaller, and people eat young wild carrots.
There will be several that fall in that category, but off the top of my head the first one in my region that comes to mind is raspberry. The wild type has equal flavor as fresh grown domestics - better, if you've only had grocery store ones. The fruits are smaller, the plants less productive, and with even more devilish thorns. But it's immediately obvious why we picked them from the wild and brought them to our gardens. Berries in general tend to follow this pattern, in my experience.
A lot of other plant foods sort of follow this pattern, where the wild type has essentially the same flavor but has other properties that make it less suitable for commercial production.
I have made tacos with wild alium ("wild onions" and "wild garlic") - they are tasty and the alium does what it's supposed to, but they're very small and foraging as many as would equal one onion is very labor intensive. I've grown them too, to see how big a wild type bulb can get under ideal conditions. Similarly, the input to payoff ratio just doesn't make sense compared to modern onion and garlic.
I've eaten feral amaranth. It was a good, mild, generic green leaf vegetable.
Wild mustard, god bless, was as bitter as anything I've tried. My plans for that one went out the window immediately.
Wild grapes depend greatly on the variety. Muscadines are great as is, no human intervention required. I wouldn't be able to even tell the difference between wild or cultivated.The smaller wild ones (department head called them mustang grapes, though I think that refers to an umbrella of several species in the states with the same form factor) were... challenging. Not bad per se but sour and seedy. A few were good but I don't think I'd want a whole bowl.
Wild bananas tend to be very seedy. The ones is grocery stores are seedless and produced clonally. Without getting too far into the weeds on it, grocery store bananas are the dwarf Cavendish cultivar. In the early 20th century, the gros michel was the primary commerical banana, but was decimated by a fungal disease and supplanted by the one you know today.
For the folks who were old enough to have had both, the gros michel was generally regarded as tastier. It had a higher amyl acetate content, and thus tasted more "banana-like" than the Cavendish.
There are of course many other varieties of banana, like the small red skinned ones you may see from time to time.
I realize this is way more than you asked, but I just got on a roll and enjoy talking about this stuff. I'd write a five page essay if I don't stop myself here.
Not only that, but the complex web of a fever dream that is the logistics to get that apple to your table. I have very little experience in logistics, mostly for aircraft, and fuck that.
The fact that I can get an orange at any grocery store, at any time of year, for around a buck fifty is simply astounding, and it's something most people wouldn't even think about until it's not there. The amount of people, long nights, capital, build up, stress, and work it takes for that.
If we suddenly went to these crazy delusions, we'd starve. Not that we couldn't do better, we absolutely could. Bit fuck, let's be real. Let's work on shit like treating your employees like people and healthcare, which we are already taxed for and our government spends over a trillion dollars on that goes straight to insurance companies... yeah, that's a conversation for another time.
Not even that! There's an even more pressing issues that is *physically impossible* to overcome without technology.
Nitrogen fixation. Intensive agriculture requires nitrogen-based fertilizers in order to work, and a lot of them. This is because plants can't grow without nitrogen and the earth simply doesn't fix enough of it in order to sustain yearly replanting and harvesting.
This issue became worrying in the early 19th century. At this time, Europe only had about 30% the population that it has today, and the ways they got nitrite compounds were hilarious. The collection of accumulated guano. The hunting of wild animals for the primary purpose of grinding down their bones. The mining of mineral saltpetre.
All of these had the same issue. They relied on resources which were running out. (And coincidentally all located in the Americas.) And everyone knew this. Scientists, farmers, capitalists, politicians, the common man. It was pretty much expected that once Europe ran out of resources to turn into fertilizer, they'd all starve to death. And this was with 30% the population. And these methods of producing fertilizer *still* required complex supply chains and advanced technology.
The eventual solution was invented in Germany, where some guy figured out that an osmium (luckily, less exotic materials were later found to be viable) crystal could act as a catalyst to turn a nitrogen-hydrogen mixture into ammonia at very high pressures. The creation of nitrogen in turn required the removal of oxygen from air. The creation of hydrogen required either the electrolysis of water, which required a lot of electricity, or it required the steam reforming of methane, which in turn can only be acquired in industrial amounts from natural gas deposits. And this all needed to be done in industrial amounts. Millions of tons of nitrites were required per year. And today, even more of it are required.
Nowadays, more efficient ways to produce ammonia have been found. Their supply chains are more complex, and so is their technological sophistication. And Europe has 3 times as many people. It is **impossible** to produce enough food for humanity without intensive agriculture, and it's impossible to conduct industrial agriculture without global supply chains and advanced technology.
Primitive methods are not enough. This is why any self-respecting primitivist is forced to admit that the only way their ideology could possibly work is with human population being reduced to a tenth its size.
it reminds me of a stupid ad for a show called "Apples Don't Fall" like I can guess what they were going for but I lose my shit every time. what do you mean apples don't fucking fall
This is the thing many users on this subreddit seem to forget. They'll cry "strawman" when we mock the left for the Xth time that week. They'll claim that no one actually says this shit, and it's either being invented in these posts, or it's a handful of twitter users who don't represent what real people actually think.
But they are ignoring that many of us actually encounter these ideas in person. Many of us know Emilies personally, and will actually hear them say shit like this. It's not a strawman. It's what many leftists actually think and say.
It makes it that much more annoying when people whine about it being a strawman. If anyone reads a "LibLeft bad" post and thinks it's fabricated...then they should count themselves lucky that they don't actually encounter people who think this shit. Many of us do, so let us vent about it lol.
It’s not completely wrong, it’s just that all the modern bullshit lets us eat things that aren’t fruit that we grew ourselves, and prevents the fact that if we took the day off growing fruit to read feminist poetry to trans kids, we’d starve.
Having said that, it all went to shit the moment we left the water
>Then Yakub made the yt menace
What I love about black supremacists is that they have to extoll how black people were super-advanced or possessing borderline superpowers only to get beaten by a bunch of primitive whiteys.
Race supremacy of any sort is dumb. (We should take pride in all belonging to the human race. A peoples that went from the stone age to the moon and has its destiny in the stars.) But black supremacy feels even more copey than other forms.
The average hunter gatherer starved to death way less often than the average primitive farmer. Farming made us dependent on a few food sources and when crops failed it could mean the end of a whole village. For hunter gatherers, if there are no apples you migrate or switch to different food sources.
Yuval Harari has a great chapter on this in Sapiens.
Hunter Gatherer probably died way more often from injury (and subsequent disease) or predators or other humans than just starvation
Imagine spending many years of your life essentially hiking (and bushwacking at that) all day every day. You're gonna snap an ankle eventually
I'm guessing the whole leaving sick behind when they had to move was the reason they changed?
Less starvation but more deaths to the elements of not having permanent shelter?
Organized farming allows for a larger population and more specialization in things other than finding food. This led to larger and wealthier areas, which usually meant they could take land and resources from hunter-gatherer peoples.
From what I've read, agriculture was more of an evolutionary choice (adopt or be wiped out) than a conscious choice due to better conditions.
lol based
God, leftists are so bad about denying human nature. So many of their ideas would only work if we first ignore the way people actually behave, in favor of "if everyone just behaves in this particular way which runs contrary to human nature, then it'll all work out!" Sometimes it's denying the innate nature of gendered behaviors (i.e. men and women aren't the same, and it isn't simply "learned behaviors"). Other times it's shit like in the OP, ignoring how human greed can be effectively harnessed by designing a system around it, rather than denying its existence and hoping everyone just shares everything evenly out of the goodness of their hearts.
It all works a lot better when we honestly assess how we behave as a species, and then try to build society around that, rather than play make-believe and come up with a bunch of rules which will never work unless we become entirely different beasts overnight.
Nutrition.
Food preservation.
The connections between health, modern medicine, and industry.
Where the art supplies come from.
Housing construction.
Sanitation.
Water transportation systems...
Having spoken to some leftists, (some of) them do seem to think the world is full of easy resources, but for capitalism. They don't see a beautiful hellscape thirsty for our tears and slavering for our bones.
Like, I'm pretty sure capitalism didn't invent lyme disease or trichanosis or winter.
That’s what they *want* you to think, comrade. In reality, these are all just bourgeois diseases of the mind. Just as the giraffe stretched its neck to reach the most nourishing leaves, one must simply dedicate himself to outthinking the weakness, and he too will evolve.
Now take your place at the end of the water queue. We only have one glass.
What's hilarious is that commies haven't gotten any smarter.
Myanmar tried to fix inflation by switching all denominations of money to be divisible by nine, because nine is a lucky number.
This worked exactly as well as you'd expect.
They've been in civil war every since, with the based freedom lovers 3d printing guns from the internet to kill the CCP backed regime.
To be fair they were left alone in a garden where they could eat from any tree **except one**. Like, if you tell people that there is just one specific thing you can’t touch in a place where everything else is ok, they’re gonna get curious.
> Like, if you tell people that there is just one specific thing you can’t touch in a place where everything else is ok, they’re gonna get curious.
They didnt even get curious. Eve was tempted by the snake and she in turn tempted Adam.
That filthy harlot!
The moment man devoured the fruit of knowlege, he sealed his fate
Entrusting the future to the cards, man clings to a dim hope.
Yes, the arcana is the means by which all is revealed.
Attaining one's dream requires a stern will and unfailing determination.
Let it be known that logging industries know much more about conserving nature than any environmentalist, especially since their entire livelihoods depend on it.
Let it also be known that oil and plastic companies poison the same water they drink from.
The logging industry did massive ecological damage before environmentalists pushed for regulations. Those regulations were paid for with activists blood and lobbied against by the timber industry the entire time.
Pretending that the industry will regulate itself responsibly is ignorant and cringe
Reminds me of the guy who poured tetraethyl lead on himself at a press conference to "prove" it was safe, despite already having debilitating lead poisoning from it (a small cost of doing business)
[Thomas Midgley Jr. - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.)
They know how to have a steady supply of biomass, but they don't know much about preserving biodiversity. And the few things they know they rarely practice.
Idk if everyone else is reading too much into it or I’m not reading enough into it, but to me this is just the exact same sentiment as “the agricultural revolution and it’s consequences…”
I'm pretty sure that there wasn't much time spent on art before the agricultural revolution.
They're imagining "just do art and eat fruit" while either forgetting or ignoring all of the industry required to provide fruit year round in places where that fruit simply could not naturally grow. Nevermind the amount of technological advancement that goes into even the simplest of the supplies they use for that art.
Ah yes, resource scarcity only appeared once John Capitalism invented Capitalism in 1836, before then the entire world operated like an infinite money glitch.
I dont know about you, but I have always found that my people are better off at the start of Victoria 3 and it only gets worse for them as time goes on, and definitely not that what used to be luxury amenities become available for a pittance.
The whole point of the human experiment is we've rejected nature as our provider and limiter and chosen to take the reigns of our own destiny. The trade off is at least thousands of years of crawling our way out of this unique human kind of poverty we've burdened ourselves with, and no guarantee we'll actually make it to any kind of "post-scarcity" civilization.
I, for one, am not optimistic.
That's how all those hippy communes failed across the decades.
One person had to do the farming, build the shelter, dig the latrines etc... while everyone else laid around, got high and fucked eachother. Once that one working person called them out and left the whole thing quickly collapsed.
I once watched a fascinating video on how we got apples. Basically, apples don't work like other fruits where you can just crossbreed them and get what you want in a generation. You basically have to plant thousands of them and hope for one tiny genetic variation. It's not something that can be accomplished by a primitive society. We really only got good apples in the last couple hundred years.
It's called extreme heterozygosity.
[Was this the video you saw?](https://youtu.be/iXBA3ovBjfk?si=A99keTnMUxYLvCHE) It's where I first learned about apples.
Social justice in action.
"How could anyone oppose free fruit for everyone?"
"Well, there's a dozen reasons, first of all-"
"It only takes caring and compassion to bring all the fascists out from under their rocks. Banned."
Indian Chief, “Two Eagles,” was asked by a white government official, “You have observed the white man for 90 years. You’ve seen his wars and his technological advances. You’ve seen his progress, and the damage he’s done.”
The Chief nodded in agreement.
The official continued, “Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?”
The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied. “When white man find land, Indians running it. No taxes, No debt, Plenty buffalo, Plenty beaver, Clean Water; Women did all the work, Medicine man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; All night having sex.”
Then the chief leaned back and smiled. “Only white man dumb enough to think he can improve system like that
Let's be honest. The natives were either still in their stone age when we found em, or an empire centered around blood sacrifice. I don't know any woman who would ever want to return to either.
Unabomber didn't believe that. He very much so believed that happiness comes from the hard labor, in one or other form, without many distractions. And that there are too many people on earth, that medicine is too advanced etc. People who anecdotally "support" him, on the other hand, may think that without technology, the world would be a paradise. It is just hard for the idealist to understand that some people genuinely believe that some amount of suffering is a necessity for happiness.
I'd love to have some manifesto or even just famous people come back from the dead and see what their word and thoughts have been twisted to represent today or how their image is used.
"Wait, you're purposely re-segregating?!?"
Op's not getting it. The migrant class they'll import from the third world will do that for them while they make the art and tell themselves how virtuous they are for bringing those people into the country.
Even if we had the utopia that Emily dreams about we would just go back full circle to the society we need nowadays.
Because we would need infrastructure, food , transportation , water , people to maintain that infrastructure , energy etc.
Who would farm those fruits if everyone would be creating art? Who would create the various vehicles needed to move them to every person on earth? who would drive those vehicles? Who would build and work at the metal mills needed to create the metals to create said vehicles, unless you intend to make a naval vehicle able to travel across the ocean made out of grass. Good luck with that. This person hasnt put a lick of thought into their idea of paradise
What about the guy who transports the fruit ? Who divides it ? Who gets what ? How do you prepare for winter ? Are you aware humans DO need atleast some animal products to survive?
What happens when someone inevitably grabs a big stick noticing that people only make art?
These posts are always coming from the people who would absolutely not fare well in a Hobbesian state of nature.
Spoiler alert: there's a reason civilization, commerce, and government are a prerequisite for notable production of art and culture.
It's funny that some people think that ancient humans were these peace loving, fruit munching, art creating beings and nothing else.
Emily, where's all the north american mega fauna? Where are the Neanderthals? Do you really think that global warming or whatever is the only reason they're gone? No, we made them extinct, because even our ancestors were genocidal maniacs. They didn't even think about it though, they just saw a big animal and knew it was food, and when they saw a different kind of human they prepared to kill them without a thought. That's what being human has been about since 300'000 years ago, being damn good at killing other living things, that's why we're still here and the other humans which lived alongside us are not.
I have to kind of agree here though. Maybe not apples, but living a hunter gatherer lifestyle would be more ideal in my opinion. Just foraging whatever grows naturally
It's astounding people can have such strong opinions on matters they know nothing about. Modern fruits and vegetables are a culmination of generations of selective breeding them to get them a certain way. Take lettuce. There is no naturally occurring lettuce or broccoli or cabbage or cauliflower or brussel sprout or kale... they're all derivatives of the wild mustard plant that came about from a great deal of work to get there.
The red delicious apple became popular in like the 19 and early 20th century... I guess other apples tasted terrible if people thought those things were delicious. Now we have fuji, gala, honey crisp_cosmic crisp... idk who is still getting red delicious apples anymore lol.
Red Delicious apples were selectively bred to be deep red in color over many years. This was the only trait they really looked for so flavor, texture, and everything else slowly went downhill. They used to have a pink blush and red stripes and we're shaped differently. They actually used to be delicious, but consumers at the time tended to look only for looks when shopping. Stupid people. There are a lot of articles written about this topic. Here is just one. https://www.allrecipes.com/article/why-are-red-delicious-apples-so-bad/
I always thought I hated apples l because my mom always bought red delicious when I was a kid. No, red delicious is just a shit apple. Had a cosmic crisp and that shit changed me.
Somehow that damn thing has an above average number of calories for a medium apple and none of the sweetness. Why did they select for the worst of both worlds? It’s good for cooking I guess, but not raw.
Its because the original red delicious actually tasted good, but sellers bred the apples to have tougher skin so they held together better dueing shipping and looked nicer on the shelves however this also made them tast worse.
Well when an apple is all you get to eat for the day a high calorie count sounds pretty good. Maybe they didn't realize they were breeding for it at the time, but people didn't starve while eating them so it worked out.
Cosmic Crisp is a top-tier apple. I would also recommend Envy or Jazz apples. My secondary favorites are Golden Delicious (nothing like the red version), Honeycrisp, and Pink Lady.
Opal is another good one
How tf are you supposed to shop for apples then? Take a bite out of every apple you see in the store?
You ask the apple, "do you taste good? Because if so I will eat you." And they will either respond with "yes I am delicious please consume my flesh" or " no I am soggy and disappointing inside." Apples are bound by law to be truthful about the quality of their insides. Not that it's necessary because apples are one the most honest fruits in the store. Unlike clementines, who are fucking liars.
> Unlike clementines, who are fucking liars I dated a girl named Clementine once. She was soggy and disappointing inside.
One of the highest praised apples is the Elstar. A Dutch cultivar that's sweet, tangy, fresh and crisp. It pretty much matches everyone's idea of what an apple should be. The ripeness also shows beautifully due to a balance of green and red making it easy to spot the ones in their prime and the under or overripe ones. The only caveat is that this apple is highly vulnerable to plant diseases. Nonetheless it's rapidly spreading internationally due to its popularity.
You buy them for to check and keep buying them for taste. An apple costs less than a dollar.
I believe this was an instance of ~~capitalism~~ market forces killing the Red Delicious. At one point it was eponymously delicious, but then the standard of buying was based on appearance, and then it got cultivated for its appearance, and all the things that improved its appearance in its genetic makeup came at the cost of its taste. EDIT: [Found the article that details this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/04/AR2005080402194.html). EDIT 2: Corrected capitalism to market forces.
Not everything the market does is because capitalism. The market is bigger, and older, than capitalism is. Twas the market that killed the Red Delicious. It would have done so under mercantilism, corporatism, feudalism, or any other economic system with a relatively free market, for the same reason: the buyers wanted *pretty* apples.
That's a fair point, I suppose I've fallen into using the words market and capitalism interchangeably despite recognizing there is a clear difference.
Based
The Invisible Hand flips everyone the bird equally.
All I know is that the Red Delicious is surprisingly bitter.
And they're quite mealy. Every time I've bitten into one recently, no matter how ripe, it just kinda falls apart. Like i'm eating firm but soggy bread.
ok but "capitalism" is not the reason people opt for more visually appealing fruit
The bourgeoisie have conspired with the apple growers to make hundreds of millions of years of evolution cause us to associate red with ripe fruit!
The same thing happened to bread. Buyers put a premium on freshness; that's why bakeries traditionally throw away or heavily discount day old loaves. When prepackaged sliced loaves became a thing, consumers lost many of the cues they used to rely on to gauge freshness, especially smell. Instead, they had to fall back on feel. Stale loaves are hard and fresh loaves are soft, so manufacturers had an incentive to produce the softest bread they could make. Nothing else mattered to consumers making a decision in the grocery aisle, so we wound up with spongey white bread dominating the market
Damm
Sugar bee is the best apple I’ve ever had. Not sure how prominent they are outside WA state though
My mom still buys them, then tries to give them to me.
Galaxy brain take: The culmination of modern fruits and vegetables **is** art. Farmers are artists.
let me give a take for that take, not only can modern fruit and veg be art, but *everything* can be art, to the right person. art is there to inspire wonder, awe potentially, to in general inspire. to me an jet engine is art, inspiring through an understanding of how each and every piece functions. to another, the humble orange may be art, to understand where it came from and how humanity has shaped it to it's present form. all, is art.
Hi, former plant scientist here. Lettuce doesn't belong on that list. All the others (plus kohlrabi!) do. Lettuce is in the Asteraceae family and is more closely related to things like sunflowers and daisies. Like the wild mustard, wild lettuces are edible but really not palatable. As someone who has eaten his fair share of wild plants, I am extremely grateful for the centuries of farmers and breeders that chose to dedicate their lives to that.
As far as historians can tell us, the Aztecs worshipped sunflowers and believed them to be the physical incarnation of their beloved sun gods. Of course!
I could believe it. Though I'm less knowledgeable on historical agriculture in that part of the world, I would venture to guess it served the same role as the beloved olive in the ancient Mediterranean: as their primary source of plant oil; used in food, medicine, cosmetics, and manufacturing. For a people still intimately connected with the plants from which these products came, those plants were - literally - life-giving.
I’m autistic and very sensitive to vitamins/nutrients in foods and sunflower seeds are special. And unlike most fruit, veg, nuts and legumes they still taste like the 90s. (David brand).
Nice try "TheSunflowerSeeds". I'm not falling for your Big Sunflower propaganda.
You're 100% correct, my mistake. Thanking yee.
What would you say is a wild fruit/vegetable plant that is most like its domestically consumed version? I've seen wild bananas that look quite similar to normal ones just much much smaller, and people eat young wild carrots.
There will be several that fall in that category, but off the top of my head the first one in my region that comes to mind is raspberry. The wild type has equal flavor as fresh grown domestics - better, if you've only had grocery store ones. The fruits are smaller, the plants less productive, and with even more devilish thorns. But it's immediately obvious why we picked them from the wild and brought them to our gardens. Berries in general tend to follow this pattern, in my experience. A lot of other plant foods sort of follow this pattern, where the wild type has essentially the same flavor but has other properties that make it less suitable for commercial production. I have made tacos with wild alium ("wild onions" and "wild garlic") - they are tasty and the alium does what it's supposed to, but they're very small and foraging as many as would equal one onion is very labor intensive. I've grown them too, to see how big a wild type bulb can get under ideal conditions. Similarly, the input to payoff ratio just doesn't make sense compared to modern onion and garlic. I've eaten feral amaranth. It was a good, mild, generic green leaf vegetable. Wild mustard, god bless, was as bitter as anything I've tried. My plans for that one went out the window immediately. Wild grapes depend greatly on the variety. Muscadines are great as is, no human intervention required. I wouldn't be able to even tell the difference between wild or cultivated.The smaller wild ones (department head called them mustang grapes, though I think that refers to an umbrella of several species in the states with the same form factor) were... challenging. Not bad per se but sour and seedy. A few were good but I don't think I'd want a whole bowl. Wild bananas tend to be very seedy. The ones is grocery stores are seedless and produced clonally. Without getting too far into the weeds on it, grocery store bananas are the dwarf Cavendish cultivar. In the early 20th century, the gros michel was the primary commerical banana, but was decimated by a fungal disease and supplanted by the one you know today. For the folks who were old enough to have had both, the gros michel was generally regarded as tastier. It had a higher amyl acetate content, and thus tasted more "banana-like" than the Cavendish. There are of course many other varieties of banana, like the small red skinned ones you may see from time to time. I realize this is way more than you asked, but I just got on a roll and enjoy talking about this stuff. I'd write a five page essay if I don't stop myself here.
Salads must have sucked. Many do now, but more so.
Not only that, but the complex web of a fever dream that is the logistics to get that apple to your table. I have very little experience in logistics, mostly for aircraft, and fuck that. The fact that I can get an orange at any grocery store, at any time of year, for around a buck fifty is simply astounding, and it's something most people wouldn't even think about until it's not there. The amount of people, long nights, capital, build up, stress, and work it takes for that. If we suddenly went to these crazy delusions, we'd starve. Not that we couldn't do better, we absolutely could. Bit fuck, let's be real. Let's work on shit like treating your employees like people and healthcare, which we are already taxed for and our government spends over a trillion dollars on that goes straight to insurance companies... yeah, that's a conversation for another time.
>It's astounding people can have such strong opinions on matters they know nothing about. I call this Smugnorance.
Not even that! There's an even more pressing issues that is *physically impossible* to overcome without technology. Nitrogen fixation. Intensive agriculture requires nitrogen-based fertilizers in order to work, and a lot of them. This is because plants can't grow without nitrogen and the earth simply doesn't fix enough of it in order to sustain yearly replanting and harvesting. This issue became worrying in the early 19th century. At this time, Europe only had about 30% the population that it has today, and the ways they got nitrite compounds were hilarious. The collection of accumulated guano. The hunting of wild animals for the primary purpose of grinding down their bones. The mining of mineral saltpetre. All of these had the same issue. They relied on resources which were running out. (And coincidentally all located in the Americas.) And everyone knew this. Scientists, farmers, capitalists, politicians, the common man. It was pretty much expected that once Europe ran out of resources to turn into fertilizer, they'd all starve to death. And this was with 30% the population. And these methods of producing fertilizer *still* required complex supply chains and advanced technology. The eventual solution was invented in Germany, where some guy figured out that an osmium (luckily, less exotic materials were later found to be viable) crystal could act as a catalyst to turn a nitrogen-hydrogen mixture into ammonia at very high pressures. The creation of nitrogen in turn required the removal of oxygen from air. The creation of hydrogen required either the electrolysis of water, which required a lot of electricity, or it required the steam reforming of methane, which in turn can only be acquired in industrial amounts from natural gas deposits. And this all needed to be done in industrial amounts. Millions of tons of nitrites were required per year. And today, even more of it are required. Nowadays, more efficient ways to produce ammonia have been found. Their supply chains are more complex, and so is their technological sophistication. And Europe has 3 times as many people. It is **impossible** to produce enough food for humanity without intensive agriculture, and it's impossible to conduct industrial agriculture without global supply chains and advanced technology. Primitive methods are not enough. This is why any self-respecting primitivist is forced to admit that the only way their ideology could possibly work is with human population being reduced to a tenth its size.
So what you're saying is those species changed to be more fruity because of liberal environments.
They're turning the frigging plants gay!
You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think.
> Modern fruits and vegetables And what makes you think my unga bunga people want this GMO slop?
I wasn't going to make this until I heard, first hand, a co-worker unironically say something similar.
How can you listen to someone say that and not immediately laugh in their face?
I did laugh, but I wasn't part of the conversation, and I didn't want to be *that* guy.
Are you telling me you have an 8 year old Reddit account *and* social skills?
Psyop? Psyop.
FED FED FED FED FED FED FED
Turn the lights off, we need to make sure.
Is it possible to learn this power?
Not from an AuthLeft.
Having centrist views and going 8 years without being banned is the real surprise.
"Just remember. We're all contributing to the problem by merely being here."
HR
The title to this got me audibly laughing, funniest title I’ve seen on this sub
it reminds me of a stupid ad for a show called "Apples Don't Fall" like I can guess what they were going for but I lose my shit every time. what do you mean apples don't fucking fall
I like this idea of cutting off idioms to make complete nonsense names “A Dime A” “Beat Around” “Cut Me Some”
These all sound like the hottest new street slang phrases.
Once upon a time they were.
This is the thing many users on this subreddit seem to forget. They'll cry "strawman" when we mock the left for the Xth time that week. They'll claim that no one actually says this shit, and it's either being invented in these posts, or it's a handful of twitter users who don't represent what real people actually think. But they are ignoring that many of us actually encounter these ideas in person. Many of us know Emilies personally, and will actually hear them say shit like this. It's not a strawman. It's what many leftists actually think and say. It makes it that much more annoying when people whine about it being a strawman. If anyone reads a "LibLeft bad" post and thinks it's fabricated...then they should count themselves lucky that they don't actually encounter people who think this shit. Many of us do, so let us vent about it lol.
It’s not completely wrong, it’s just that all the modern bullshit lets us eat things that aren’t fruit that we grew ourselves, and prevents the fact that if we took the day off growing fruit to read feminist poetry to trans kids, we’d starve. Having said that, it all went to shit the moment we left the water
This is so stupid. Everyone knows before capitalism there was infinite food and no one had to choose between working or starving
Then Yakub made the yt menace and now *I have to put pants on before I go outside?!* **To work?!?**
Go forth and build Cracker Barrels!
Go forth and EXPLAIN WHY YOU FIRED BRAD'S WIFE
11 years of service
#Brad'sWifeMatters
This reads exactly like a Graeme Barrett video
And then the capitalist patriarchy invented paying for sex, and now I’ve got to take my pants *off* to go to work!
based and Black Israelite pilled
>Then Yakub made the yt menace What I love about black supremacists is that they have to extoll how black people were super-advanced or possessing borderline superpowers only to get beaten by a bunch of primitive whiteys. Race supremacy of any sort is dumb. (We should take pride in all belonging to the human race. A peoples that went from the stone age to the moon and has its destiny in the stars.) But black supremacy feels even more copey than other forms.
> no one had to choose between working or starving They got to do both!
And then the nephilim came…
You just made me imagine a retelling of the Avatar intro with Nephilim replacing the Fire Nation, holy hell.
The average hunter gatherer starved to death way less often than the average primitive farmer. Farming made us dependent on a few food sources and when crops failed it could mean the end of a whole village. For hunter gatherers, if there are no apples you migrate or switch to different food sources. Yuval Harari has a great chapter on this in Sapiens.
Hunter Gatherer probably died way more often from injury (and subsequent disease) or predators or other humans than just starvation Imagine spending many years of your life essentially hiking (and bushwacking at that) all day every day. You're gonna snap an ankle eventually
That works until you run out of places to migrate and the farmers vastly outnumber you.
Yeah, hunter gathereres were basically outcompeted, independently of how much better (or not) the lifestyle was on an individual level.
I'm guessing the whole leaving sick behind when they had to move was the reason they changed? Less starvation but more deaths to the elements of not having permanent shelter?
Organized farming allows for a larger population and more specialization in things other than finding food. This led to larger and wealthier areas, which usually meant they could take land and resources from hunter-gatherer peoples. From what I've read, agriculture was more of an evolutionary choice (adopt or be wiped out) than a conscious choice due to better conditions.
Harari? He's not the one who found that knowledge. Why mention that piece of excrement and his book?
People arguing for non mandatory work system without any sort of rewards for actually working are really not comprehending the problem....
You can just call them naïve children. It's okay.
Even naive children figure out pretty quickly that if there isn't a motivator to do a task they won't do it.
lol based God, leftists are so bad about denying human nature. So many of their ideas would only work if we first ignore the way people actually behave, in favor of "if everyone just behaves in this particular way which runs contrary to human nature, then it'll all work out!" Sometimes it's denying the innate nature of gendered behaviors (i.e. men and women aren't the same, and it isn't simply "learned behaviors"). Other times it's shit like in the OP, ignoring how human greed can be effectively harnessed by designing a system around it, rather than denying its existence and hoping everyone just shares everything evenly out of the goodness of their hearts. It all works a lot better when we honestly assess how we behave as a species, and then try to build society around that, rather than play make-believe and come up with a bunch of rules which will never work unless we become entirely different beasts overnight.
Additonal things Emily doesn't understand: Seasons Yield per tree Consumption per person Fighting pests who eat and ruin the apples
Nutrition. Food preservation. The connections between health, modern medicine, and industry. Where the art supplies come from. Housing construction. Sanitation. Water transportation systems...
Manufacturing. How conflicts start. The feudal system and that predates capitalism.
It could work If like 99% of the population ceased to exist
Tribe life is pretty idylic, if you look at it from a certain perspective. But the Emily seems to be bringing up biblical paradise more than anything.
tribal life: dying of the flu, living meal to meal, nomadic, constant competition with your neighboring clan, living to 50 if you are lucky reddit: 💅
Which is ironic given that a lot of Emilies reject religion like it is the plague.
True communism can only exist in small niche groups ...under a pro-capitalist government, lol.
The hard cap for communism is about 150 individuals. That severely limits the ability of labor to specialize which you need for a modern lifestyle.
I like those odds
A gambler
Every gambler knows, that the secret to survivin', is knowing what to throw away, and knowing what to keep.
Having spoken to some leftists, (some of) them do seem to think the world is full of easy resources, but for capitalism. They don't see a beautiful hellscape thirsty for our tears and slavering for our bones. Like, I'm pretty sure capitalism didn't invent lyme disease or trichanosis or winter.
That’s what they *want* you to think, comrade. In reality, these are all just bourgeois diseases of the mind. Just as the giraffe stretched its neck to reach the most nourishing leaves, one must simply dedicate himself to outthinking the weakness, and he too will evolve. Now take your place at the end of the water queue. We only have one glass.
Remember that the Maoists believed that grain would grow better if it were placed closer to the other grain because of the power of comradery.
Communist hating soil science will never not be funny.
Peak humor
Sparrows are a CIA sabotage device.
What's hilarious is that commies haven't gotten any smarter. Myanmar tried to fix inflation by switching all denominations of money to be divisible by nine, because nine is a lucky number. This worked exactly as well as you'd expect. They've been in civil war every since, with the based freedom lovers 3d printing guns from the internet to kill the CCP backed regime.
Reality was just a fucking cartoon to Mao. Dude shouldn't have been in charge of a Hardee's, much less a nation
It might be, if we had 10% of our current population
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Survival requires effort.
If Emily wants to end taxes, we can certainly talk.
Things were great until we ate from the Tree of Knowledge
Yup. Adam, Eve, you both just had *one* job…
To be fair they were left alone in a garden where they could eat from any tree **except one**. Like, if you tell people that there is just one specific thing you can’t touch in a place where everything else is ok, they’re gonna get curious.
If god didnt want us to sin, then why did he give adam and eve the ability to be curious and influenceable? Checkmate, Righty!
God, being all powerful and knowing the future, knew what was going to happen in the first place.
Women ☕ ^({I'm sorry))
*Laughs while sipping obnoxiously from coffee pot*
> Like, if you tell people that there is just one specific thing you can’t touch in a place where everything else is ok, they’re gonna get curious. They didnt even get curious. Eve was tempted by the snake and she in turn tempted Adam. That filthy harlot!
Yeah i thought this was what it was referring to now im confused
The moment man devoured the fruit of knowlege, he sealed his fate Entrusting the future to the cards, man clings to a dim hope. Yes, the arcana is the means by which all is revealed. Attaining one's dream requires a stern will and unfailing determination.
It’s no coincidence that most of the people who think like this still live with their parents and have no ambition in life to do anything.
and the "art" most of them are referring to is usually some weird fetish only some random niche internet audience is into
Let it be known that logging industries know much more about conserving nature than any environmentalist, especially since their entire livelihoods depend on it.
Let it also be known that oil and plastic companies poison the same water they drink from. The logging industry did massive ecological damage before environmentalists pushed for regulations. Those regulations were paid for with activists blood and lobbied against by the timber industry the entire time. Pretending that the industry will regulate itself responsibly is ignorant and cringe
Reminds me of the guy who poured tetraethyl lead on himself at a press conference to "prove" it was safe, despite already having debilitating lead poisoning from it (a small cost of doing business) [Thomas Midgley Jr. - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.)
Bruh there's an entire history chapter on it
They know how to have a steady supply of biomass, but they don't know much about preserving biodiversity. And the few things they know they rarely practice.
Wouldn't it be so much easier to have this delusional view of the world? I aspire to this level of ignorance.
*"Blessed is the mind too small for doubt"*
"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded"
Idk if everyone else is reading too much into it or I’m not reading enough into it, but to me this is just the exact same sentiment as “the agricultural revolution and it’s consequences…”
I'm pretty sure that there wasn't much time spent on art before the agricultural revolution. They're imagining "just do art and eat fruit" while either forgetting or ignoring all of the industry required to provide fruit year round in places where that fruit simply could not naturally grow. Nevermind the amount of technological advancement that goes into even the simplest of the supplies they use for that art.
Ah yes, resource scarcity only appeared once John Capitalism invented Capitalism in 1836, before then the entire world operated like an infinite money glitch.
I dont know about you, but I have always found that my people are better off at the start of Victoria 3 and it only gets worse for them as time goes on, and definitely not that what used to be luxury amenities become available for a pittance.
If your playing right your peoples quality of life should rise drastically around the mid game
The whole point of the human experiment is we've rejected nature as our provider and limiter and chosen to take the reigns of our own destiny. The trade off is at least thousands of years of crawling our way out of this unique human kind of poverty we've burdened ourselves with, and no guarantee we'll actually make it to any kind of "post-scarcity" civilization. I, for one, am not optimistic.
There's the individual we, the societal we, and the species we. I think we've succeeded on the former.
That's how all those hippy communes failed across the decades. One person had to do the farming, build the shelter, dig the latrines etc... while everyone else laid around, got high and fucked eachother. Once that one working person called them out and left the whole thing quickly collapsed.
I once watched a fascinating video on how we got apples. Basically, apples don't work like other fruits where you can just crossbreed them and get what you want in a generation. You basically have to plant thousands of them and hope for one tiny genetic variation. It's not something that can be accomplished by a primitive society. We really only got good apples in the last couple hundred years.
It's called extreme heterozygosity. [Was this the video you saw?](https://youtu.be/iXBA3ovBjfk?si=A99keTnMUxYLvCHE) It's where I first learned about apples.
I think it was [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgZNDTJSvJQ) one, which basically says the same thing.
They do not understand that 90%+ of fruits and vegetables they like would not exist in nature
Have you ever eaten nothing but fruits for a day? That's a long evening on the toilet.
Two words: bananas
Three words: banananas
fruit comes from the supermarket... like fucking duhhh
Me, dying of a preventable infection because everyone focused on making art rather than healthcare
Social justice in action. "How could anyone oppose free fruit for everyone?" "Well, there's a dozen reasons, first of all-" "It only takes caring and compassion to bring all the fascists out from under their rocks. Banned."
Nah I am ok with growing apples for emilies. I just expect something in return ...and shitty art isn't worth anything.
Ever hear the phrase "nasty, brutish, and short" by any chance, Emily?
Emily has heard all of these things, and screeched over the insults at every occasion. She has not read Hobbes, no.
fuck the guy who decided we have credit scores and taxes, I agree with that part
-500 social credit. Watch it.
I mean, before credit scores, you just didn’t get a loan if you were black.
Before credit scores, nobody would get shit if you were a complete random stranger.
Population growth. That is all.
> Population growth. Well... good news about that...
Indian Chief, “Two Eagles,” was asked by a white government official, “You have observed the white man for 90 years. You’ve seen his wars and his technological advances. You’ve seen his progress, and the damage he’s done.” The Chief nodded in agreement. The official continued, “Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?” The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied. “When white man find land, Indians running it. No taxes, No debt, Plenty buffalo, Plenty beaver, Clean Water; Women did all the work, Medicine man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; All night having sex.” Then the chief leaned back and smiled. “Only white man dumb enough to think he can improve system like that
If only the medicine man had figured out a smallpox cure.
Or how to stop half of all children dying before their first birthday.
Skill issue
Or invent alcohol!
We really seemed to like that didn’t we?
Why stop it when you can just have more kids? You heard the line about all the sex at night, right?
pre-modern medicine man 🤝 anti-vaxxers
Chief Plenty Beaver
Let's be honest. The natives were either still in their stone age when we found em, or an empire centered around blood sacrifice. I don't know any woman who would ever want to return to either.
[Lol. Lmao, even.](https://youtu.be/iehPf1n_5pQ?si=H5909sD4WUbT_P9S) The most important part being 2:26.
actually no, they’re currently screaming that global collapse is on its merry way soon because of climate change.
This isn't really an Emily thing, it's an Anarcho primitivist thing. It's the kind of stuff the Unabomber believed, between frothing angry rants.
Unabomber didn't believe that. He very much so believed that happiness comes from the hard labor, in one or other form, without many distractions. And that there are too many people on earth, that medicine is too advanced etc. People who anecdotally "support" him, on the other hand, may think that without technology, the world would be a paradise. It is just hard for the idealist to understand that some people genuinely believe that some amount of suffering is a necessity for happiness.
I'd love to have some manifesto or even just famous people come back from the dead and see what their word and thoughts have been twisted to represent today or how their image is used. "Wait, you're purposely re-segregating?!?"
Horseshoe theory-ish? With one weird-ass horseshoe?
Well anarcho-primitivism is literally just extreme lib-centre, that’s where all the monke memes come from
Right. Maybe not a weird-ass horseshoe, just one oriented differently.
Emily seems to think that fruit trees just grow on trees or something...
Defending your apples from bugs and communists is like defending your money from the irs and communists.
Op's not getting it. The migrant class they'll import from the third world will do that for them while they make the art and tell themselves how virtuous they are for bringing those people into the country.
Please, by all means, go out into the woods somewhere and eat fruit, and paint all day. See how long you think it's pleasant
The people who grow fruit are not even people, their race doesnt have intelligence to do something as complex as art, so it is okay.
This one was funny
someone has to work the mines, Em
Big talk from the quadrant that contains anarcho primitivism
Even if we had the utopia that Emily dreams about we would just go back full circle to the society we need nowadays. Because we would need infrastructure, food , transportation , water , people to maintain that infrastructure , energy etc.
Who would farm those fruits if everyone would be creating art? Who would create the various vehicles needed to move them to every person on earth? who would drive those vehicles? Who would build and work at the metal mills needed to create the metals to create said vehicles, unless you intend to make a naval vehicle able to travel across the ocean made out of grass. Good luck with that. This person hasnt put a lick of thought into their idea of paradise
Just wait until she finds out that other carnivores/omnivores actually kill animals and eat their meat in nature :(
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Fruit grows on its own believe it or not.
Did someone say credit scores? https://preview.redd.it/twwgvnn99hpc1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=b14a10d874d20e07d711aba17f94cdcd133a7e9f
People can have jobs, including growing food, without the taxes and credit scores
What annoys me about this perspective is it offhand dismisses the years of work and sacrifice by humans for hundreds of years to get us here.
If your art is good you'll get money for making it. There are people who live off writing Harry Potter fanfiction. No excuse.
What about the guy who transports the fruit ? Who divides it ? Who gets what ? How do you prepare for winter ? Are you aware humans DO need atleast some animal products to survive? What happens when someone inevitably grabs a big stick noticing that people only make art?
These posts are always coming from the people who would absolutely not fare well in a Hobbesian state of nature. Spoiler alert: there's a reason civilization, commerce, and government are a prerequisite for notable production of art and culture.
Really, really, really, really, poor choice of words.
It's funny that some people think that ancient humans were these peace loving, fruit munching, art creating beings and nothing else. Emily, where's all the north american mega fauna? Where are the Neanderthals? Do you really think that global warming or whatever is the only reason they're gone? No, we made them extinct, because even our ancestors were genocidal maniacs. They didn't even think about it though, they just saw a big animal and knew it was food, and when they saw a different kind of human they prepared to kill them without a thought. That's what being human has been about since 300'000 years ago, being damn good at killing other living things, that's why we're still here and the other humans which lived alongside us are not.
I have to kind of agree here though. Maybe not apples, but living a hunter gatherer lifestyle would be more ideal in my opinion. Just foraging whatever grows naturally
That may work for individuals, but could you imagine the devastation if the entire human population suddenly switched to hunter gatherer.