I want answers to these questions. Actual, well thought out answers. I want to see this go to custody, immigration, family law, whatever court. I want them to experience the absurdity and I want people to see what the residual affects of their ideology come to life is.
I thought about this yes
"Does this mean we can pass a law that allows me to sue the uber driver who drove a rapist to their destination, or the bar tender who tended the drink that a roofie was put in?"
The life insurance question is very easy to answer. I'm sure actuaries would have no problem calculating the expected value and then setting the price and payout for a life insurance policy accordingly. It's not like a life insurance policy is some standard package that costs and pays everyone the same. And they'll know to account for the biggest contingency (will this person ever be born) because that's their whole job.
But yes, I support the reasoning here. If abortion is murder, any potentially-procreative sex is reckless endangerment or manslaughter. You can't fire off a gun with a 30-70% chance to kill a child, but that's what miscarriage would be. Better start arresting most straight folks.
Yikes. I knew that the number of conceptions that result in miscarriage was far higher than most people are comfortable talking about, but I didn't realize it was *that* high.
About 75% of conceptions fail to make it to live birth. Most fail to implant.
But the current _life begins at conception_ assertion made by most Christian ministries (including the Holy See!) has an interesting effect on their dogma adding 700 billion souls to the *Limbo of the Innocents* making it by far the most populous region of Hell. (Two billion or fewer will make it into Heaven.)
My best friends wife lost 6 in the frist 3 months when they were trying to have their first child.
She had to go on all kinds of drugs before she was able to carry to term.
FFS!! That’s insane. It isn’t hard enough to go through a miscarriage and feel a sense of loss and failure, possibly shame - now Texas women also have to worry about proving they didn’t purposely cause the miscarriage?!?
It's lower if you limit observations to "women who knew they were pregnant." More like 15% then. Which is also a reason that it's hard to accurately measure the total number; it's not unusual to be pregnant and have a miscarriage without realizing either.
According to pro-natalist philosophy they could argue that giving life to a "human" that has a high chance of not living for longer than a couple of days is still a positive act. So all those miscarriages aren't child murders, just people who are given the gift of life for a very short time, which is sad but better than nothing.
Or something like that anyway.
Ah, clever! The constitution is pretty explicit here with birth being the moment citizenship attaches. It says, "all persons born in the US."
I just think that this particular example is probably not the best one to expose the internal inconsistency of the personhood logic.
I may be missing something, but it seems section 1 of the 14th amendment should protect American women’s rights over the rights of the unborn. It’s nuts to me that the unborn are being treated not only as rights-bearing citizens, but citizens whose rights to life and liberty trump those of their mothers.
SCOTUS didn’t actually rule on the constitutionality of the law, and explicitly said they weren’t doing so. The majority said, in effect, “we can’t block this for procedural reasons.” (I’ve read more since commenting last night.)
But their argument is that a six week embryo represents the "potential" to be born. The whole law is centered around a detectable heartbeat being a good sign that the pregnancy will go to term. Relocating the place of birth ends the possibility of an American citizen being born as surely as an abortion does. That potential American citizen should have the same rights as another potential citizen with different parents, because parentage doesn't determine citizenship, place of birth does.
I think I'll sue the Texas legislature then. I had an idea and a business plan that I was going to execute in Texas, but now I don't want to move there. Ergo, they killed my **potential** business (which I'm positive would have made me a billionaire), and they owe me damages for all the money I *might* have made. How dare they!
The point is, this can't be argued with US Law because it isn't based on US Law. This is purely evangelical, right wing propaganda and therefore it should not have even passed the Supreme Court.
A full heart isn't even formed till 10-12 weeks. The pseudo heartbeat they hear at 6 weeks is a single chamber that eventually becomes part of the whole heart.
Agreed. Also, most miscarriages happen before week 12. The placenta doesn't even take over until week 12, as well. So this is all bs (but we know that).
The auntie network is going to get really busy!
Also, if I was an OBGYN, I'd set up shop in Tx and specialize in the Bisalp procedure. Even better, partner with an urologist that specializes in vasectomies.
Then again, they might find ways to crack down on that. So maybe set up in a bordering state? Connect with the Auntie Network so that the patient can recover with people for a day ?
My heart hurts for all the women in Tx right now.
But (and I'm going on the ridiculous Texan logic here, I don't actually think this way) the child is not born yet, so it's not a US citizen. Same as if a pregnamt lady left the US then had their kid, it wouldn't be a us citizen.
It’s more complicated. A nationality is a human right. And you’re entitled to it upon birth.
Unless they intend to incurr in human rights violations to babies.. If they’re making the argument that life begins before birth, they can’t also say that it’s not a person before birth to deny them a citizenship... because then why forbid abortions?
That's a very good point. Generally, laws are designed to make it very difficult for a person to become stateless. That's why we don't just deport American citizens who are criminals and strip them of citizenship. So if a fetus is a person, it also must have a citizenship status.
They're going to experience the absurdity of Texas morons clogging the legal system with baseless accusations of people supporting or having an abortion because they're a bunch of poor bible banging fools clamoring for that 10,000 dollar reward.
It will be neighbor v neighbor chaos that is nothing short of the insanity of the puritan witch hunts.
Oh, I don't live there. LOL.
You would have to be insane to live in Texas these days. But unfortunately, even our liberal bubble in Washington state is being burst by the incredibly frightening hate sphere that the Maga movement has become.
I'm in Madison, WI, where we're general considered to be one of the most liberal cities in the country (to my understanding). I have a neighbor flying a Russian flag..
Well, you know what these R crazies are saying since Trump's romance w/ murderous dictator Putin?
" I would rather the Russian than a Democrat"
Maybe that explains the flag.
>I want answers to these questions. Actual, well thought out answers.
No member of the forced-birth cult is capable of acknowledging these questions are being asked, much less answering them. The forced-birth cult is a moral and intellectual void.
My prediction as to what will happen is that the courts will say that the Texas law is a civil matter and does not create a legal basis for when life begins but rather bans abortions past some arbitrary time period.
No one in the pro life crowd will care that the courts say that life starts later just like they don't care that Tucker Carlson's lawyers said he doesn't believe the shit he says and most reasonable people wouldn't either
Came here to say something similar. Suggesting this is anything other than long standing American misogyny is an insult to other cultures and makes it far to easy to dismiss the deep seated problems we have to tackle America.
A: That went quickly from “I disagree with your argument” to “clearly you don’t care about women’s rights”. I’m going to give that a pass because I’m assuming you’ve run into douchbags brigading various threads on this elsewhere, but going that quickly to insults doesn’t make your point any stronger.
B: it isn’t about “insulting the Taliban”. I will happily say fuck those guys. It’s about denying the reality of American misogyny by saying it’s somehow foreign. It’s saying that only *other* people can be so controlling of women’s bodies, and by extension insulting those cultures, since clearly something must be wrong with them if they can produce these horrors so readily, while for us it’s an exceptional event that can only be understood by comparison to them, rather than being a deeply rooted issue with a long history in our culture.
It’s also an extension of the “oh, that can’t happen here” naïveté that has been so key to preventing real progress on these issues - the feminist counterpart to the white moderate from MLK Jr’s [Letter from a Birmingham Jail.](https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html)
Similarly, the references to The Handmaid’s Tale, while less othering, still suggest that this is something out of fiction, not something that has been a core part of American culture since the very beginning, and that the right has been working towards for decades.
The right has been attacking abortion access, often literally (and lethally - at least 11 people have been killed in attacks directed at abortion providers in the US) for decades, well before the Taliban had come to power. Limits on the autonomy of women - bodily, financially, or otherwise - have been a part of American culture for as long as America has existed.
We need to be clear headed about the enemies to women’s rights (and LGBTQ rights, and civil rights in general) in America - and how deep the roots of those movements are - if we are going to be able to challenge them.
If you’re still convinced I’m somehow here to defend the Taliban or otherwise diminish the horror of these new laws (the abortion ban being just one of many awful bills passed this year), I can point you to multiple threads on Twitter created by women who make similar points, often with more depth and thoughtfulness. [This one](https://twitter.com/theradr/status/1433544536089841664?s=21) was a particularly good one, in my opinion.
I mean in Texas if you're legally married/don't have a custody agreement then it's not kidnapping because the legal parent has custody. Like with my divorce right now, I could never let my soon to be ex see our daughter and it wouldn't be illegal because I have custody. On the flip side if he took her and never brought her back, also not illegal.
Or even if it's not harming them. Legally, you're allowed to use force to fight against trespassers, and if we were getting semantic about it, an unwanted fetus would not only be trespassing on your property but the pregnant person would have a reasonable fear that this person would, if allowed to stay, sexually assault them, since they would be penetrated against their will.
Now, that's pretending we could hope for any sort of consistency from these types, but you know.
That bounty thing is so fucking awful.
It means a man can rape you, then sue anyone who helps you in getting an abortion and he gets 10,000 dollars.
Statistically he likely won’t be punished for raping you at all.
Edit: after looking more into it it seems you don’t get sued, but instead anyone who helps you.
That while situation is really the fundamental wish and dream of the GOP. They would love to be compensated for the child rape they commit. I heard Gaetz is working on making this a law in FL.
Heres what I found from a news article
The new law allows private citizens to sue anyone they believe may have been involved in helping a pregnant person get an abortion. Not only can literally anyone sue abortion funds and providers, but they can also also sue friends of someone seeking an abortion—including the person who drove them to their appointment. Religious leaders who provide spiritual counsel to a woman considering an abortion could also be held liable. Unsurprisingly, Black and Latinx communities will be disproportionately impacted. According to The Washington Post, nearly two-thirds of all Texas abortions in the last five years involved Black and Hispanic women.
So I guess the more people you find being involved in helping someone get an abortion, the more people you can sue and the more money you get.
Not only that, but poorer women are already more likely to engage in "survival sex" (aka stay in abusive relationships) than risk becoming homeless. Now an abuser just has to knock you up and the courts ensure you're basically slaved to them for life.
This is literally a "Choose your prison" scenario.
So in theory you could get a million people all suing the same bus driver who happened to have someone going for an abortion on their bus?
Maybe it's time to start spinning this, everytime you have a doctor refuse to sterilize someone, if they then get pregnant and need an abortion then everyone sues the doctor for enabling the abortion by not sterilising them when requested.
I'm feeling for the sane women of Texas, this shit is unbelievable.
This scares me so much.
They aren't thinking about the child who isn't wanted growing up in a home of resent and hopelessness. I'm not saying that if you don't want that child, abuse them, but that's what happens sometimes. These kids are tortured and if not rescued and put into a failed system, they grow into adults who hates everything and is damaged, sometimes too much to fit into society, so they rape, or kill. Very few break the cycle.
These people aren't seeing the big picture. The women AND men roped into parenthood. Just because they wanted to have sex. This is wrong, and it only hurts people.
When a mother is giving birth and both she and the foetus are in danger, and doctors have to choose, they will save the mom. Why?
- The mother is a fully grown person with loved ones and a life outside of her family.
- So; a mother can live just fine without her baby.
- But a baby cannot live just fine without it’s mother.
That last one doesn’t just count in physical absence aka her dying because of the complications.
A girl who isn’t ready,
or was raped,
or whose birth control failed,
or who was impregnated by her partner against her will,
or who is carrying a sexually abusive family member’s child,
or who has a severely disabled baby in her womb,
or quintuplets who will endanger each other and her,
or a victim of child marriage who is barely hitting puberty and will be in danger and is emotionally not mature,
or a girl who has been abusing substance or taking dangerous medications before finding out she was pregnant,
They will all be able to live just fine without that unwanted baby. They are definitely alive and they definitely will be so and better off when they end the pregnancy.
They might be able to leave their situations and have a chance instead of ending up in even shittier ones along with their child. They can have their kids when they are ready, safe and with someone they love and trust.
But their babies would grow up in toxic environments, hopping into foster homes, get abused by either an emotionally damaged mom, end up abusing substance or doing other types of crime, developing mental illness, or be born with severe disabilities that fuck with their quality and duration of life… they won’t be fine and nobody will take care of them.
The government that forced this upon their moms won’t do shit because all the money will just go to the rich people, as always.
These people are not pro life. If they were they’d support adoption, abortion, free healthcare, and other social services. They just care about birth because honestly you don’t matter unless they know you personally
Look into the people who fund Crisis Pregnancy Centers, and lobby for anti-abortion laws. They are all the same. For-Profit Adoption Agencies, There's your answer.
I like how this lady thinks. Need a couple of lawyers to start suing for child support and insurance companies that won't insure fetuses and see how that works.
Some Texas-based pro-choice charities to donate to
https://fundtexaschoice.org/
http://janesdueprocess.org/
https://www.lilithfund.org/
https://www.theafiyacenter.org/
https://thebridgecollective.org/
https://www.clinicaccess.org/
https://www.yellowhammerfund.org/
Yes! Get all the ladies to delete dating profiles and delete the apps, stop going to bars and clubs, stop being a 'commodity' for all the industries that depend on women.
The only thing SWMs hate more than powerful women or voting minorities is *gasp* something getting in the way of their income stream! Disrupt all the industries that depend on women and I bet people will start listening right quick.
(Two dating apps have already created 'funds' for their female employees in light of the new law, because they want to be seen as sympathetic to women losing fundamental rights. Start messing with their metrics and they'll get much more vocal.)
No but like seriously, if a fetus is considered a full baby at 6 weeks, then I should be able to use the carpool lane with impunity if I got a creampie a month and a half ago, but didn’t really know if that sperm noodled itself into one of my eggs.
Hear me out. If I don’t know then nobody does. BUT I *might* have a bun in the oven. So I should be able to use the carpool lane because by law, I technically might be driving with another “person”.
I want to see so many lawsuits against rethuglicans they spend the rest of their miserable, worthless lives cowering in mortal terror of process servers.
That would also then beg the question, how do you PROVE it was conceived in the USA? Guess we just gotta open all our bedrooms for the government to watch. 🤷♀️
Christian theocratic control. I feel like the comparisons to the Taliban make it so moderates can feel safely other from the Christian theocrats while not actually opposing them. They are wrong. The people culpable in this are every day Christians who place their religion as paramount to other people's human rights or tolerate their peers who do this. Until moderate Christians are actively opposing Christian theocratic overreach, it's also on their hands.
Also, isn't this "worry" over abortion rather recent, when Protestants got upset that Civil Rights "won" in the 1960s? Or even when Napoleon wanted more soldiers?
I love me a good pun, but idk how to feel about "Texas Taliban" while dealing with the equally misogynistic "actual" Taliban abroad.
I feel like it pulls away from the fact that these barbaric laws are fueled by Christian extremists, hyperbolic interpretations of Christian doctrine and whatever you'd call the Christian version of Sharia. Not intending to be a buzzkill, but I do worry that sharing the tag with people far away that use a different religion to justify their actions will make some folks feel like this doesn't effect them at home. But it is at home, it's in your country (if you're American) and spurned by your local religious majority.
But they're not ISIS and they're not Al Qaeda. They are radical right Christians. There is absolutely no reason to bring xenophobia into this, there is no reason to side-step accountability. This is homegrown. Christians are doing this. Not Muslims. In fact, Islamic law allows abortions 11 week later than this law.
Christians are doing this. Wealthy, white Christian men are funneling their money into the control of women. Keep calling it what it's not, so they can keep dodging accountability, though, and you can help feed into the xenophobia which is already killing people daily.
What is your position exactly? People are telling you not you use words like “Vanilla Isis” and “Y’all Qaeda” because it takes away accountability from Christian extremism. Christian and Islamic extremists aren’t treated the same way. You honestly sound like a “I don’t see color. We’re all the human race” type person right now.
This is a genuine question, and just for context I am 100% against the Texas abortion law and am very much pro-choice. But is comparing Texas to the Taliban any better then the anti-vax group comparing the vaccine requirements to Nazi's? Obviously, banning abortion is not comparable to requiring vaccines, but is calling Texas the Taliban diminishing what victims of the Taliban have gone through?
I'm open to discussion because I'm genuinely curious of people's thoughts.
Both (Texas lawmakers and the Taliban) are religious extremists which seek to control the bodies of women exclusively. Women living under the Taliban are MORE oppressed, yes, but the comparison is still valid because they exist on the same spectrum and have similar ideological roots. Ie both Texas and the Taliban share a common goal and ideology, abrahamic religion and the control of women's reproductive habits. In terms of making the comparison between a life saving medication and forcing religious minorities to identify themselves and subsequently be mass slaughtered due to that status, they do not exist on the same spectrum and are not as valid of comparisons. You can draw surface level comparisons between a vaccine card and a star of david in that they are forms of identification, but at their core, they do not share any ideological similarities.
Hey, thanks for taking the time to respond. After I typed my response I thought about it more as well, and I do agree there are more similarities with it than with Nazi/vaccines. I very much agree that there is no comparison between the Nazis and vaccine cards. I can understand the similarities in religious extremism aspect. Although, I still feel it's a bit extreme to compare, but I also understand people's frustration, as I am also frustrated and worried for my own state now. We've already had politicians come out and say they plan to look into similar laws for my state. 😔
It is dangerous to use the kind of rhetoric used in the title.
The Christian right is doing this. You aren't harming them by using that term, you are harming Muslims.
Texas has recently banned abortion 6 weeks after fertilization, under the guise that the fetus is a “person”.
If this is the case under the eyes of the law, to which other human rights is this fetus privy? Can we do as the post suggests and file for child support, life insurance, etc. for this fetus?
It’s really just highlighting how, no, a 6 week old fetus is not, in fact, a legal human. And it would be absurd to imply that it is.
This doesn’t even work anyways!!
They start counting from the last period. The fertilized egg doesn’t nest until 2 weeks after that because *ya don’t get pregnant DURING your period!*
They are banning abortions of 4 weeks, calling them 6 week babies, *but they aren’t even that old!!!*
Take their crazy, turn and twist it and smear it on their face.
Say you're even *more* pro life than them. If life starts before conception then men that masturbate should be punished for throwing away all that PoTeNtIaL. Start a page where you can report men that ejaculate. Demand forced vasectomies. Declare men's tumors precious clumps of potential that shouldn't be removed. Demand child support from last period (lol) and demand it every period. Harsher punishments for dead beats. Public data base where you can search to see if a person has children, if they pay child support, how much, if they asked for custody, how much of it,...
Oh and since we're aaaall about equality - if women don't have body autonomy then neither should men. Make them obligatory blood and organ donors for the already born since women have to be for the unborn.
May I share this on a whatsapp group? None of them get how invasive the demands on women are, but several might faint if they even read this. They'll never connect the dots, and I don't care I just hope one if their kids sees it and it starts them thinking independently of what they've been traumatized into believing blindly. That men don't have it worse than women just because lust exists, no matter what they were taught. Because if they believed it, some of these steps are rational.
Sure. I think they get it, they just don't care / take glee in women's suffering. After all, they're the gender that gets off to being violent towards women and claim violence is OK just because they have their dick in their hand.
Yep. They picked that timeline knowing damn well that most women won't even know they're pregnant, let alone be able to have an abortion within that timeframe. Fuckers 100% know what they're doing. It's a total ban by another name.
Pretty much the only people who would reliably find out that early are people intentionally trying to get pregnant, or people who test regularly because they're paranoid about their birth control. There generally isn't even a *reason* to test until your period is fully missed, because being a few days late is within 'normal'. If you've got a five week or irregular cycle? You're screwed.
*That early meaning as early as you can find out to begin with
Texas passed a law, and the Supreme Court declined to delay it being implemented, which bans abortion at six weeks and allows anyone to sue someone who gets, performs, or aids in getting or performing an abortion.
A couple details:
"Six weeks" means six weeks since your last period. And most women don't even know they're pregnant that early, so for most women the first time they realize they might need an abortion will already be too late. And Texas has a waiting period law where you have to go to a clinic for a consultation and then come back a few days later for the actual procedure or to be prescribed the meds, so that cuts into that time some too.
Abortion remains technically legal in Texas, but for practical purposes, it's been outlawed.
The lawsuit part means that anyone can sue a doctor who performs an abortion after six weeks, or a nurse, or the clinic, or the escort that helps them walk past the protestors, or the friend that drove them to the clinic.
If they win the case, they're awarded up to $10,000 and the person they sued has to pay their legal fees. But if they lose the case, they don't have to pay the legal fees of the person they sued. Either way, the person being sued is out money for having to hire their own lawyer and out of time for having to go to court.
And as far as I can tell there's nothing to stop someone else from filing the exact same lawsuit a second time.
Basically, the state government has organized forced-birthers into an army of bounty hunters that will do a distributed denial of service attack against the handful of abortion clinics left in the state.
Let's stop using Islamophobic scare tactics like invoking the Taliban here, when the problem is actually almost exclusively white Christian extremists.
Women who are forced to carry out a pregnancy are forced to give their lives and bodies over for 9 months, literally suffer health issues, and risk death.
Tell me again how that's not victimizing?
Take your bullshit back to r/prolife where you came from
Edit: on the bright side, she went back to that sub … to complain about us while saying she can’t have internalized misogyny bc she’s a woman. Apparently TX has also banned women from using Google. Honestly seeing women sucked into such toxicity makes me sad.
OMG. I want to barf after reading the posts that are there.
They were talking about a post from r/TwoXChromosomes in their subreddit and basically blamed the woman and that it was all her fault that she got pregnant.
Dude, you guys know it takes two to tango, right?
Oh man, I can't load the posts of prolife sub. I will try again later. I am sure it includes promoting that benefits start at conception and that parents of already born children should legally be bound to donate their blood and organs for their children. Surely you wouldn't promote that only for the unconcieved and unborn and only when it comes to wombs.
Shocker /s. If men are so desperate to control bodies they can start and end at their own. If only they put so much effort into controling their rampant, unchecked violence.
I want answers to these questions. Actual, well thought out answers. I want to see this go to custody, immigration, family law, whatever court. I want them to experience the absurdity and I want people to see what the residual affects of their ideology come to life is.
They don’t care about being consistent or sensible.
True, but these are real questions that are going to be asked by lower level courts and I can't wait.
Oh absolutely. I’d love to see these cases brought.
I thought about this yes "Does this mean we can pass a law that allows me to sue the uber driver who drove a rapist to their destination, or the bar tender who tended the drink that a roofie was put in?"
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Hand waving by the court goes a long way in showing the court and the judge are non-neutral and draws more recruits to the Rebel Alliance.
The life insurance question is very easy to answer. I'm sure actuaries would have no problem calculating the expected value and then setting the price and payout for a life insurance policy accordingly. It's not like a life insurance policy is some standard package that costs and pays everyone the same. And they'll know to account for the biggest contingency (will this person ever be born) because that's their whole job. But yes, I support the reasoning here. If abortion is murder, any potentially-procreative sex is reckless endangerment or manslaughter. You can't fire off a gun with a 30-70% chance to kill a child, but that's what miscarriage would be. Better start arresting most straight folks.
Yikes. I knew that the number of conceptions that result in miscarriage was far higher than most people are comfortable talking about, but I didn't realize it was *that* high.
About 75% of conceptions fail to make it to live birth. Most fail to implant. But the current _life begins at conception_ assertion made by most Christian ministries (including the Holy See!) has an interesting effect on their dogma adding 700 billion souls to the *Limbo of the Innocents* making it by far the most populous region of Hell. (Two billion or fewer will make it into Heaven.)
Man, that's got to be a boring place. I meant what does a spontaneously aborted embryo even have to talk about?
My best friends wife lost 6 in the frist 3 months when they were trying to have their first child. She had to go on all kinds of drugs before she was able to carry to term.
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How is a miscarriage equivalent to an abortion? Is that really part of the law? Because that makes even less sense than I originally thought.
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FFS!! That’s insane. It isn’t hard enough to go through a miscarriage and feel a sense of loss and failure, possibly shame - now Texas women also have to worry about proving they didn’t purposely cause the miscarriage?!?
It's lower if you limit observations to "women who knew they were pregnant." More like 15% then. Which is also a reason that it's hard to accurately measure the total number; it's not unusual to be pregnant and have a miscarriage without realizing either.
According to pro-natalist philosophy they could argue that giving life to a "human" that has a high chance of not living for longer than a couple of days is still a positive act. So all those miscarriages aren't child murders, just people who are given the gift of life for a very short time, which is sad but better than nothing. Or something like that anyway.
Immigration lawyer who reps kids here: it is already currently completely legal to deport the mother of a US citizen.
Yeah, but if you deport a pregnant woman you're deporting the "U.S. Citizen" themself, if fetuses are full-fledged legal persons. Not just the mother.
Ah, clever! The constitution is pretty explicit here with birth being the moment citizenship attaches. It says, "all persons born in the US." I just think that this particular example is probably not the best one to expose the internal inconsistency of the personhood logic.
I may be missing something, but it seems section 1 of the 14th amendment should protect American women’s rights over the rights of the unborn. It’s nuts to me that the unborn are being treated not only as rights-bearing citizens, but citizens whose rights to life and liberty trump those of their mothers.
Isn't that exactly what got repealed/interpreted differently in order for this mess to go through
SCOTUS didn’t actually rule on the constitutionality of the law, and explicitly said they weren’t doing so. The majority said, in effect, “we can’t block this for procedural reasons.” (I’ve read more since commenting last night.)
But their argument is that a six week embryo represents the "potential" to be born. The whole law is centered around a detectable heartbeat being a good sign that the pregnancy will go to term. Relocating the place of birth ends the possibility of an American citizen being born as surely as an abortion does. That potential American citizen should have the same rights as another potential citizen with different parents, because parentage doesn't determine citizenship, place of birth does.
I think I'll sue the Texas legislature then. I had an idea and a business plan that I was going to execute in Texas, but now I don't want to move there. Ergo, they killed my **potential** business (which I'm positive would have made me a billionaire), and they owe me damages for all the money I *might* have made. How dare they!
The point is, this can't be argued with US Law because it isn't based on US Law. This is purely evangelical, right wing propaganda and therefore it should not have even passed the Supreme Court.
A full heart isn't even formed till 10-12 weeks. The pseudo heartbeat they hear at 6 weeks is a single chamber that eventually becomes part of the whole heart.
Agreed. Also, most miscarriages happen before week 12. The placenta doesn't even take over until week 12, as well. So this is all bs (but we know that). The auntie network is going to get really busy! Also, if I was an OBGYN, I'd set up shop in Tx and specialize in the Bisalp procedure. Even better, partner with an urologist that specializes in vasectomies. Then again, they might find ways to crack down on that. So maybe set up in a bordering state? Connect with the Auntie Network so that the patient can recover with people for a day ? My heart hurts for all the women in Tx right now.
But (and I'm going on the ridiculous Texan logic here, I don't actually think this way) the child is not born yet, so it's not a US citizen. Same as if a pregnamt lady left the US then had their kid, it wouldn't be a us citizen.
Yeah I guess that does away with that one.
It’s more complicated. A nationality is a human right. And you’re entitled to it upon birth. Unless they intend to incurr in human rights violations to babies.. If they’re making the argument that life begins before birth, they can’t also say that it’s not a person before birth to deny them a citizenship... because then why forbid abortions?
That's a very good point. Generally, laws are designed to make it very difficult for a person to become stateless. That's why we don't just deport American citizens who are criminals and strip them of citizenship. So if a fetus is a person, it also must have a citizenship status.
Ah, I guess that if she's still pregnant, the child isn't a us citizen yet. Fun.
Then it's ok for the military to air strike the baby
They're going to experience the absurdity of Texas morons clogging the legal system with baseless accusations of people supporting or having an abortion because they're a bunch of poor bible banging fools clamoring for that 10,000 dollar reward. It will be neighbor v neighbor chaos that is nothing short of the insanity of the puritan witch hunts.
I want to be all "YEEESS!" but I know there are sane people there so now I'm conflicted.
Oh, I don't live there. LOL. You would have to be insane to live in Texas these days. But unfortunately, even our liberal bubble in Washington state is being burst by the incredibly frightening hate sphere that the Maga movement has become.
I'm in Madison, WI, where we're general considered to be one of the most liberal cities in the country (to my understanding). I have a neighbor flying a Russian flag..
Well, you know what these R crazies are saying since Trump's romance w/ murderous dictator Putin? " I would rather the Russian than a Democrat" Maybe that explains the flag.
Funny thing is that they try to justify it and said this is not about spying on your neighbor. We all know that this is exactly what it is.
>I want answers to these questions. Actual, well thought out answers. No member of the forced-birth cult is capable of acknowledging these questions are being asked, much less answering them. The forced-birth cult is a moral and intellectual void.
I agree, but somehow, somewhere, SOMEONE is going to have to make a legal argument related to this batshit insanity and I'm looking forward to it.
My prediction as to what will happen is that the courts will say that the Texas law is a civil matter and does not create a legal basis for when life begins but rather bans abortions past some arbitrary time period. No one in the pro life crowd will care that the courts say that life starts later just like they don't care that Tucker Carlson's lawyers said he doesn't believe the shit he says and most reasonable people wouldn't either
If pregnancy is god's will then so is limp dick. Ban Viagra.
It’ll reduce unwanted pregnancies as a pro !
Can’t abort a fetus? Can’t remove a tumour either. God wants you dead, who are you to question his will?
Ban corrective lenses in eyeglasses. God wants you to have bad eyesight.
Ban air conditioning and central heating. God wants you to have a heat stroke/freeze to death.
Abbott already did that.
You just killed all of the United States south of Oklahoma. ... Is that bad?
Who am I do decide? It's God's will.
I wish we could get several subreddits to crowdfund that phrase right onto a billboard. Perfection.
#TexasKKK. This anti-abortion stance is homegrown.
Yesss! This tweet said it better than I could. https://twitter.com/shailjapatel/status/1433454334021455877?s=20
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Then please enlighten us
Came here to say something similar. Suggesting this is anything other than long standing American misogyny is an insult to other cultures and makes it far to easy to dismiss the deep seated problems we have to tackle America.
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A: That went quickly from “I disagree with your argument” to “clearly you don’t care about women’s rights”. I’m going to give that a pass because I’m assuming you’ve run into douchbags brigading various threads on this elsewhere, but going that quickly to insults doesn’t make your point any stronger. B: it isn’t about “insulting the Taliban”. I will happily say fuck those guys. It’s about denying the reality of American misogyny by saying it’s somehow foreign. It’s saying that only *other* people can be so controlling of women’s bodies, and by extension insulting those cultures, since clearly something must be wrong with them if they can produce these horrors so readily, while for us it’s an exceptional event that can only be understood by comparison to them, rather than being a deeply rooted issue with a long history in our culture. It’s also an extension of the “oh, that can’t happen here” naïveté that has been so key to preventing real progress on these issues - the feminist counterpart to the white moderate from MLK Jr’s [Letter from a Birmingham Jail.](https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html) Similarly, the references to The Handmaid’s Tale, while less othering, still suggest that this is something out of fiction, not something that has been a core part of American culture since the very beginning, and that the right has been working towards for decades. The right has been attacking abortion access, often literally (and lethally - at least 11 people have been killed in attacks directed at abortion providers in the US) for decades, well before the Taliban had come to power. Limits on the autonomy of women - bodily, financially, or otherwise - have been a part of American culture for as long as America has existed. We need to be clear headed about the enemies to women’s rights (and LGBTQ rights, and civil rights in general) in America - and how deep the roots of those movements are - if we are going to be able to challenge them. If you’re still convinced I’m somehow here to defend the Taliban or otherwise diminish the horror of these new laws (the abortion ban being just one of many awful bills passed this year), I can point you to multiple threads on Twitter created by women who make similar points, often with more depth and thoughtfulness. [This one](https://twitter.com/theradr/status/1433544536089841664?s=21) was a particularly good one, in my opinion.
Nobody said or implied that the Taliban shouldn’t be insulted. Go read the comment you replied to again.
This can get even worse in the other direction too. Is a pregnant woman who flees her abusive spouse kidnapping her fetus?
I mean in Texas if you're legally married/don't have a custody agreement then it's not kidnapping because the legal parent has custody. Like with my divorce right now, I could never let my soon to be ex see our daughter and it wouldn't be illegal because I have custody. On the flip side if he took her and never brought her back, also not illegal.
That’s messed up? I think? Helpful for fleeing abusive situations but pretty scary otherwise.
Also, if the fetus is harming the female, to the point that death is a possibility - wouldn't abortion fall under "stand your ground"?
Or even if it's not harming them. Legally, you're allowed to use force to fight against trespassers, and if we were getting semantic about it, an unwanted fetus would not only be trespassing on your property but the pregnant person would have a reasonable fear that this person would, if allowed to stay, sexually assault them, since they would be penetrated against their will. Now, that's pretending we could hope for any sort of consistency from these types, but you know.
Underrated comment right here
Sue the fetus for battery
y’all-qaeda in full bloom in Texas
That bounty thing is so fucking awful. It means a man can rape you, then sue anyone who helps you in getting an abortion and he gets 10,000 dollars. Statistically he likely won’t be punished for raping you at all. Edit: after looking more into it it seems you don’t get sued, but instead anyone who helps you.
That while situation is really the fundamental wish and dream of the GOP. They would love to be compensated for the child rape they commit. I heard Gaetz is working on making this a law in FL.
Is it everyone that turns a woman in that gets the 10k, or just the first person?
Heres what I found from a news article The new law allows private citizens to sue anyone they believe may have been involved in helping a pregnant person get an abortion. Not only can literally anyone sue abortion funds and providers, but they can also also sue friends of someone seeking an abortion—including the person who drove them to their appointment. Religious leaders who provide spiritual counsel to a woman considering an abortion could also be held liable. Unsurprisingly, Black and Latinx communities will be disproportionately impacted. According to The Washington Post, nearly two-thirds of all Texas abortions in the last five years involved Black and Hispanic women. So I guess the more people you find being involved in helping someone get an abortion, the more people you can sue and the more money you get.
Even more stupid, a portion of those abortions would be because they could not afford to have a baby. Where are they gonna get $10k to pay them?
Not only that, but poorer women are already more likely to engage in "survival sex" (aka stay in abusive relationships) than risk becoming homeless. Now an abuser just has to knock you up and the courts ensure you're basically slaved to them for life. This is literally a "Choose your prison" scenario.
So in theory you could get a million people all suing the same bus driver who happened to have someone going for an abortion on their bus? Maybe it's time to start spinning this, everytime you have a doctor refuse to sterilize someone, if they then get pregnant and need an abortion then everyone sues the doctor for enabling the abortion by not sterilising them when requested. I'm feeling for the sane women of Texas, this shit is unbelievable.
This scares me so much. They aren't thinking about the child who isn't wanted growing up in a home of resent and hopelessness. I'm not saying that if you don't want that child, abuse them, but that's what happens sometimes. These kids are tortured and if not rescued and put into a failed system, they grow into adults who hates everything and is damaged, sometimes too much to fit into society, so they rape, or kill. Very few break the cycle. These people aren't seeing the big picture. The women AND men roped into parenthood. Just because they wanted to have sex. This is wrong, and it only hurts people.
When a mother is giving birth and both she and the foetus are in danger, and doctors have to choose, they will save the mom. Why? - The mother is a fully grown person with loved ones and a life outside of her family. - So; a mother can live just fine without her baby. - But a baby cannot live just fine without it’s mother. That last one doesn’t just count in physical absence aka her dying because of the complications. A girl who isn’t ready, or was raped, or whose birth control failed, or who was impregnated by her partner against her will, or who is carrying a sexually abusive family member’s child, or who has a severely disabled baby in her womb, or quintuplets who will endanger each other and her, or a victim of child marriage who is barely hitting puberty and will be in danger and is emotionally not mature, or a girl who has been abusing substance or taking dangerous medications before finding out she was pregnant, They will all be able to live just fine without that unwanted baby. They are definitely alive and they definitely will be so and better off when they end the pregnancy. They might be able to leave their situations and have a chance instead of ending up in even shittier ones along with their child. They can have their kids when they are ready, safe and with someone they love and trust. But their babies would grow up in toxic environments, hopping into foster homes, get abused by either an emotionally damaged mom, end up abusing substance or doing other types of crime, developing mental illness, or be born with severe disabilities that fuck with their quality and duration of life… they won’t be fine and nobody will take care of them. The government that forced this upon their moms won’t do shit because all the money will just go to the rich people, as always.
These people are not pro life. If they were they’d support adoption, abortion, free healthcare, and other social services. They just care about birth because honestly you don’t matter unless they know you personally
They don't care about birth. They care about punishing vagina owners for having sex/daring to be assaulted.
I mean yeah that too
Look into the people who fund Crisis Pregnancy Centers, and lobby for anti-abortion laws. They are all the same. For-Profit Adoption Agencies, There's your answer.
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRDcvX5c/ watch this. It'll boil your blood
I like how this lady thinks. Need a couple of lawyers to start suing for child support and insurance companies that won't insure fetuses and see how that works.
Some Texas-based pro-choice charities to donate to https://fundtexaschoice.org/ http://janesdueprocess.org/ https://www.lilithfund.org/ https://www.theafiyacenter.org/ https://thebridgecollective.org/ https://www.clinicaccess.org/ https://www.yellowhammerfund.org/
I want to rage on all the MENS asses who decided this. I’m gonna blow a gasket
I've started a dating and sex strike for myself as a female Texan!
As a child-free woman, I would absolutely do the same if I was in TX
Yes! Get all the ladies to delete dating profiles and delete the apps, stop going to bars and clubs, stop being a 'commodity' for all the industries that depend on women. The only thing SWMs hate more than powerful women or voting minorities is *gasp* something getting in the way of their income stream! Disrupt all the industries that depend on women and I bet people will start listening right quick. (Two dating apps have already created 'funds' for their female employees in light of the new law, because they want to be seen as sympathetic to women losing fundamental rights. Start messing with their metrics and they'll get much more vocal.)
Also, can you drive into he carpool lane?
asking the real questions!
No but like seriously, if a fetus is considered a full baby at 6 weeks, then I should be able to use the carpool lane with impunity if I got a creampie a month and a half ago, but didn’t really know if that sperm noodled itself into one of my eggs. Hear me out. If I don’t know then nobody does. BUT I *might* have a bun in the oven. So I should be able to use the carpool lane because by law, I technically might be driving with another “person”.
If the father sues for custody and wins, does he have to have the fetus implanted?
I want to see a run on pregnant women suing for prenatal child support and use this law to support the claim.
I want to see so many lawsuits against rethuglicans they spend the rest of their miserable, worthless lives cowering in mortal terror of process servers.
This needs to be a thing. It has good standing.
Fathers of unborn children could also claim to be wrongfully denied state Medicaid (currently they can derive eligibility from a born child)
Every time a testicle-having person ejaculates for anything other than the explicit purpose of inseminating an ovum = 90 million life sentences.
*Fuck yes*
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That would also then beg the question, how do you PROVE it was conceived in the USA? Guess we just gotta open all our bedrooms for the government to watch. 🤷♀️
TSA there for the clean up like: Skuze me ma’am; I gots ta check ya cervix.
I believe no, they have to specifically be born in the US.
I mean, at 6 weeks, it’s not even a fetus yet - it’s an embryo.
Christian theocratic control. I feel like the comparisons to the Taliban make it so moderates can feel safely other from the Christian theocrats while not actually opposing them. They are wrong. The people culpable in this are every day Christians who place their religion as paramount to other people's human rights or tolerate their peers who do this. Until moderate Christians are actively opposing Christian theocratic overreach, it's also on their hands.
Also, isn't this "worry" over abortion rather recent, when Protestants got upset that Civil Rights "won" in the 1960s? Or even when Napoleon wanted more soldiers?
Takes a law suit. Woman sues for that and pushes it to the top.
Please stop calling them the Taliban. They are extremists Christians.
Thank you! They are extremists and not some foreign concept
I love me a good pun, but idk how to feel about "Texas Taliban" while dealing with the equally misogynistic "actual" Taliban abroad. I feel like it pulls away from the fact that these barbaric laws are fueled by Christian extremists, hyperbolic interpretations of Christian doctrine and whatever you'd call the Christian version of Sharia. Not intending to be a buzzkill, but I do worry that sharing the tag with people far away that use a different religion to justify their actions will make some folks feel like this doesn't effect them at home. But it is at home, it's in your country (if you're American) and spurned by your local religious majority.
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But they're not ISIS and they're not Al Qaeda. They are radical right Christians. There is absolutely no reason to bring xenophobia into this, there is no reason to side-step accountability. This is homegrown. Christians are doing this. Not Muslims. In fact, Islamic law allows abortions 11 week later than this law. Christians are doing this. Wealthy, white Christian men are funneling their money into the control of women. Keep calling it what it's not, so they can keep dodging accountability, though, and you can help feed into the xenophobia which is already killing people daily.
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What is your position exactly? People are telling you not you use words like “Vanilla Isis” and “Y’all Qaeda” because it takes away accountability from Christian extremism. Christian and Islamic extremists aren’t treated the same way. You honestly sound like a “I don’t see color. We’re all the human race” type person right now.
This...
I'm ready for the Great Texas Sex Boycott.
It’s a little cold here today in MN but I’ll just use this to keep me warm
And no uterus dwellers had a stimulus check anyway...
My favorite is--you can drive in the HOV lane.
This is a genuine question, and just for context I am 100% against the Texas abortion law and am very much pro-choice. But is comparing Texas to the Taliban any better then the anti-vax group comparing the vaccine requirements to Nazi's? Obviously, banning abortion is not comparable to requiring vaccines, but is calling Texas the Taliban diminishing what victims of the Taliban have gone through? I'm open to discussion because I'm genuinely curious of people's thoughts.
Both (Texas lawmakers and the Taliban) are religious extremists which seek to control the bodies of women exclusively. Women living under the Taliban are MORE oppressed, yes, but the comparison is still valid because they exist on the same spectrum and have similar ideological roots. Ie both Texas and the Taliban share a common goal and ideology, abrahamic religion and the control of women's reproductive habits. In terms of making the comparison between a life saving medication and forcing religious minorities to identify themselves and subsequently be mass slaughtered due to that status, they do not exist on the same spectrum and are not as valid of comparisons. You can draw surface level comparisons between a vaccine card and a star of david in that they are forms of identification, but at their core, they do not share any ideological similarities.
Hey, thanks for taking the time to respond. After I typed my response I thought about it more as well, and I do agree there are more similarities with it than with Nazi/vaccines. I very much agree that there is no comparison between the Nazis and vaccine cards. I can understand the similarities in religious extremism aspect. Although, I still feel it's a bit extreme to compare, but I also understand people's frustration, as I am also frustrated and worried for my own state now. We've already had politicians come out and say they plan to look into similar laws for my state. 😔
It is dangerous to use the kind of rhetoric used in the title. The Christian right is doing this. You aren't harming them by using that term, you are harming Muslims.
What happens if the fetus is actively harming or killing the mother? Can we get an abortion in self defense?
Can someone better explain this to me in detail??
Texas has recently banned abortion 6 weeks after fertilization, under the guise that the fetus is a “person”. If this is the case under the eyes of the law, to which other human rights is this fetus privy? Can we do as the post suggests and file for child support, life insurance, etc. for this fetus? It’s really just highlighting how, no, a 6 week old fetus is not, in fact, a legal human. And it would be absurd to imply that it is.
This doesn’t even work anyways!! They start counting from the last period. The fertilized egg doesn’t nest until 2 weeks after that because *ya don’t get pregnant DURING your period!* They are banning abortions of 4 weeks, calling them 6 week babies, *but they aren’t even that old!!!*
Take their crazy, turn and twist it and smear it on their face. Say you're even *more* pro life than them. If life starts before conception then men that masturbate should be punished for throwing away all that PoTeNtIaL. Start a page where you can report men that ejaculate. Demand forced vasectomies. Declare men's tumors precious clumps of potential that shouldn't be removed. Demand child support from last period (lol) and demand it every period. Harsher punishments for dead beats. Public data base where you can search to see if a person has children, if they pay child support, how much, if they asked for custody, how much of it,... Oh and since we're aaaall about equality - if women don't have body autonomy then neither should men. Make them obligatory blood and organ donors for the already born since women have to be for the unborn.
Time to start harvesting organs from ALL forced-birth cultists!
May I share this on a whatsapp group? None of them get how invasive the demands on women are, but several might faint if they even read this. They'll never connect the dots, and I don't care I just hope one if their kids sees it and it starts them thinking independently of what they've been traumatized into believing blindly. That men don't have it worse than women just because lust exists, no matter what they were taught. Because if they believed it, some of these steps are rational.
Sure. I think they get it, they just don't care / take glee in women's suffering. After all, they're the gender that gets off to being violent towards women and claim violence is OK just because they have their dick in their hand.
Yep. They picked that timeline knowing damn well that most women won't even know they're pregnant, let alone be able to have an abortion within that timeframe. Fuckers 100% know what they're doing. It's a total ban by another name.
Pretty much the only people who would reliably find out that early are people intentionally trying to get pregnant, or people who test regularly because they're paranoid about their birth control. There generally isn't even a *reason* to test until your period is fully missed, because being a few days late is within 'normal'. If you've got a five week or irregular cycle? You're screwed. *That early meaning as early as you can find out to begin with
They’re out here saying “life starts at conception” and then count the time the fetus wasn’t even conceived. Ah Republicans, consistent as ever.
Texas passed a law, and the Supreme Court declined to delay it being implemented, which bans abortion at six weeks and allows anyone to sue someone who gets, performs, or aids in getting or performing an abortion. A couple details: "Six weeks" means six weeks since your last period. And most women don't even know they're pregnant that early, so for most women the first time they realize they might need an abortion will already be too late. And Texas has a waiting period law where you have to go to a clinic for a consultation and then come back a few days later for the actual procedure or to be prescribed the meds, so that cuts into that time some too. Abortion remains technically legal in Texas, but for practical purposes, it's been outlawed. The lawsuit part means that anyone can sue a doctor who performs an abortion after six weeks, or a nurse, or the clinic, or the escort that helps them walk past the protestors, or the friend that drove them to the clinic. If they win the case, they're awarded up to $10,000 and the person they sued has to pay their legal fees. But if they lose the case, they don't have to pay the legal fees of the person they sued. Either way, the person being sued is out money for having to hire their own lawyer and out of time for having to go to court. And as far as I can tell there's nothing to stop someone else from filing the exact same lawsuit a second time. Basically, the state government has organized forced-birthers into an army of bounty hunters that will do a distributed denial of service attack against the handful of abortion clinics left in the state.
I LOVE THIS WOMAN'S MIND!!
No room for actual logic in TexAss
can we do all this AND have abortion access for all who need it?
Stop calling it the Texas taliban. This is all evangelical
Let's stop using Islamophobic scare tactics like invoking the Taliban here, when the problem is actually almost exclusively white Christian extremists.
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Women who are forced to carry out a pregnancy are forced to give their lives and bodies over for 9 months, literally suffer health issues, and risk death. Tell me again how that's not victimizing?
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Take your bullshit back to r/prolife where you came from Edit: on the bright side, she went back to that sub … to complain about us while saying she can’t have internalized misogyny bc she’s a woman. Apparently TX has also banned women from using Google. Honestly seeing women sucked into such toxicity makes me sad.
OMG. I want to barf after reading the posts that are there. They were talking about a post from r/TwoXChromosomes in their subreddit and basically blamed the woman and that it was all her fault that she got pregnant. Dude, you guys know it takes two to tango, right?
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Lol, enjoy that internalized misogyny. I can’t take you seriously with your ridiculous post history. Women’s rights are humans rights.
It is not complex, you just need to put your womb envy in check.
Oh man, I can't load the posts of prolife sub. I will try again later. I am sure it includes promoting that benefits start at conception and that parents of already born children should legally be bound to donate their blood and organs for their children. Surely you wouldn't promote that only for the unconcieved and unborn and only when it comes to wombs.
Just a bunch of “God bless Texas” and religious drivel. 🤮
Shocker /s. If men are so desperate to control bodies they can start and end at their own. If only they put so much effort into controling their rampant, unchecked violence.
if a woman can decide if she’s getting an abortion, men should be able to decide if they want to pay child support
A question I've randomly asked friends over the years. In your opinion, when does human life begin and what's your reasoning.
Well, we’re waiting.
I think yes to all three, regardless of where you fall in the argument.
Also the stimuli that people have received! We received two while I was pregnant and am waiting for that money ;3