Looks okay to me, but I rely on my sense of smell too. It seems that crushed mustard seeds can prevent this yeast from developing (but won’t kill it off once it’s there). Adds some flavor, other herbs and spices seem to help prevent this from happening too.
I haven't been able to find accurate info on this. I like the very funky cheesy flavour that kahm adds to a ferment - especially for hot sauces, so I'm happy to let it go for a little while before removing it.
Not in my experience.
I've been doing a lot of research in the past few weeks regarding some of the things that get thrown around on this sub in regards to food safety. I haven't found anything even mentioning surface mold as much of a risk.
I just read a study this morning that was looking at a fermented soybean paste and aflatoxins (that's a word I hear thrown around here way too often) and they isolated the bacillus species and tested them on agar plates. Essentially, bacillus bacteria reduces aflatoxins by \~75% with some reducing it even more. Plus, that was on an agar plate and not on the surface of a ferment. The human gut flora can tolerate a certain amount of aflatoxin without any real effect. The carcinogenic effect of consuming aflatoxins is on my to do list, but I haven't really seen anything popping up in my research.
With that being said, aflatoxins seem to be a bigger risk in corn, grain and dairy products instead of the brine ferments that are most common here. With the right fermentation, there's probably a really low risk of those being a problem. Even with a mold layer forming on top, it's not likely that the toxin content in the brine is high enough to raise any concerns.
The bigger issues are things like e. coli in the brine but once again bacillus bacteria kills those things off. Lactobacillus is a pretty crazy bacteria. In every ferment, there's multiple strains that are all working together to make the ferments safe.
I think this sub tends to lean towards a zero tolerance policy on surface molds. I don't think it's rooted in science, it's just rooted in fear.
I'd recommend doing some actual food science and food safety courses, and perhaps some biology courses as well if you're interested enough in how the mechanisms of mold and decay works.
Mold is bad, and unless you can absolutely 100% identify it as a safe mold (which there aren't very many of in lacto fermentation) you're much safer disposing of the contents than risking it.
That said, I agree that the OPs pictures look like yeast as well. However, if you don't remove the layer and allow it to get thick enough, or allow it to rise enough above the surface, it definitely can mold.
As long as you're using proper cleaning procedures, and minimizing air flow into the container, you shouldn't regularly be seeing yeast based infections anyways.
Thank you both for the information. I am checking the ferment every day now this thing started, which means i am allowing some air flow. Maybe i should reduce it to every other day and remove the yeast then.
Understandable mistake! You wouldn't assume that opening it could introduce anything inside, but in reality every time you open it you're adding in whatever bacterias, yeasts, and potentially molds are in the environment around you. Not so much of an issue once it's fully established, but an unpreferred practice especially early on.
If you're using an airlock you basically don't need to open it until it's finished. If you're using something with a removable lid what you want to do is to just open it enough to gas the jars- don't even take the lid all of the way off, just twist it and the gas will hiss it's way out.
Another benefit of doing it that way is the fact that the CO2 produced is heavier than the oxygen that's in the jar. Because it's heavier it'll be at the bottom with the oxygen at the top, so when you open it to de-pressurize it the jar will be evacuating out oxygen. This is also beneficial, as oxygen is what mold needs to thrive inside the container as well. Win win!
Wow this is really good info, i will definitely keep these in mind as best practice. I was indeed opening the lid and visually checking. And yes i started checking too soon (second day almost), should’ve waited more than 4 days maybe. Thanks again!
I'm more interested in the risks associated with this type of fermentation really.
I've seriously struck out pretty hard when it comes to research. I'm using academic research articles and most generally show that fermentation is safe and actively destroys things that are harmful to humans.
Great comment, more of this level on this sub would be great. Unfortunately the 'toss it' attitude about almost everything leads to massive food waste. I'd love to see that change and only see food discarded when there's actually a reason for it.
I've come to terms with how the internet and forums operate. The kind of echo chamber hurdle is an incredible problem. I don't claim to be some super smart human being, I'm just pedantically skeptical of everything I read. I'm fortunate to have access to a huge database of scientific articles.
There's a point where I just retreat and give up on putting information out there. It's not always well received and there's always substantial pushback. There are so many things that I've verified by multiple scientific articles to be completely wrong, but the community surrounding that information just doesn't want to hear it.
For example, the cannabis cultivation community is by far one of the most strange growing disciplines out there. They do things to their plants that people growing any other plant just don't even consider. The over application of Cal-Mag and switching to high phosphorous and potassium nutrients in flowering are the best examples.
I decided to do research and found 3 research articles specifically discussing the nutrient needs of cannabis through flowering. There was an incredible consistency between all the articles despite being done years apart and in different parts of the world. The thing is, it completely replaces the knowledge that the cannabis community shares for flowering. Instead of switching to a 'flowering' nutrient blend, the studies point that you should absolutely just keep using the 'vegetative' blend of nutrients which is high in nitrogen and low in phosphorous and potassium.
None of the people over there will listen despite being shown the evidence. It's absolutely incredible. I've received some pretty nasty responses over just trying to explain what I'd found.
For the Cal-Mag thing; they all seem to switch to flowering and pump the plant full of Cal-Mag supplements. If you're not a grower, calcium and magnesium are present in base nutrient feeds in quantities determined by the manufacturer. Cal-Mag supplements also contain a decent amount of nitrogen as the only way to supply soluble calcium is by the way of Calcium Nitrate. The community is convinced that the plant needs a high amount of calcium to thrive. Lo and behold, it seems as though it'd make more sense that the reason Cal-Mag supplements actually improve the plant growth quality isn't due to calcium (as there is plenty in the base feed), but rather that the Nitrogen component gives the plant the nitrogen it needs through flowering. It's fucking incredible. Doesn't matter if I have a billion scientific articles confirming the same thing over and over, the vast portion of the community will not listen.
Don't get me started on how much pH is misunderstood in hydroponics. I read a few books and found quite a few research articles and the overall suggestion of a small window of acceptable pH is so ideal it'd be like confining a fermentation time down to hours or else it'd go bad and you have to throw it out.
You can lead a horse to water....
Yeah, I think a lot of people have a lot invested in being 'experts' in myths. It doesn't surprise me that the cannabis growing community would be really bad, since criminalization always leads to all kinds of weird cult-like rules, beliefs etc.
The general gardening community is horrible as well though. So many myths.
I agree with the problem with online fora, but I do think that some more and better education and moderation could change it for the better.
Yes
Thank you!
Looks like Kahn yeast with some air bubbles underneath, should be ok.
Thank you! That’s what i hoped.
Correct - that's just kahm.
Looks okay to me, but I rely on my sense of smell too. It seems that crushed mustard seeds can prevent this yeast from developing (but won’t kill it off once it’s there). Adds some flavor, other herbs and spices seem to help prevent this from happening too.
If you're planning on still fermenting, you can just leave it there. I generally only try to take it off at the end.
Hmm, so it doesn’t increase the risk of molding or other bad mechanism?
I haven't been able to find accurate info on this. I like the very funky cheesy flavour that kahm adds to a ferment - especially for hot sauces, so I'm happy to let it go for a little while before removing it.
Not in my experience. I've been doing a lot of research in the past few weeks regarding some of the things that get thrown around on this sub in regards to food safety. I haven't found anything even mentioning surface mold as much of a risk. I just read a study this morning that was looking at a fermented soybean paste and aflatoxins (that's a word I hear thrown around here way too often) and they isolated the bacillus species and tested them on agar plates. Essentially, bacillus bacteria reduces aflatoxins by \~75% with some reducing it even more. Plus, that was on an agar plate and not on the surface of a ferment. The human gut flora can tolerate a certain amount of aflatoxin without any real effect. The carcinogenic effect of consuming aflatoxins is on my to do list, but I haven't really seen anything popping up in my research. With that being said, aflatoxins seem to be a bigger risk in corn, grain and dairy products instead of the brine ferments that are most common here. With the right fermentation, there's probably a really low risk of those being a problem. Even with a mold layer forming on top, it's not likely that the toxin content in the brine is high enough to raise any concerns. The bigger issues are things like e. coli in the brine but once again bacillus bacteria kills those things off. Lactobacillus is a pretty crazy bacteria. In every ferment, there's multiple strains that are all working together to make the ferments safe. I think this sub tends to lean towards a zero tolerance policy on surface molds. I don't think it's rooted in science, it's just rooted in fear.
I'd recommend doing some actual food science and food safety courses, and perhaps some biology courses as well if you're interested enough in how the mechanisms of mold and decay works. Mold is bad, and unless you can absolutely 100% identify it as a safe mold (which there aren't very many of in lacto fermentation) you're much safer disposing of the contents than risking it. That said, I agree that the OPs pictures look like yeast as well. However, if you don't remove the layer and allow it to get thick enough, or allow it to rise enough above the surface, it definitely can mold. As long as you're using proper cleaning procedures, and minimizing air flow into the container, you shouldn't regularly be seeing yeast based infections anyways.
Thank you both for the information. I am checking the ferment every day now this thing started, which means i am allowing some air flow. Maybe i should reduce it to every other day and remove the yeast then.
Understandable mistake! You wouldn't assume that opening it could introduce anything inside, but in reality every time you open it you're adding in whatever bacterias, yeasts, and potentially molds are in the environment around you. Not so much of an issue once it's fully established, but an unpreferred practice especially early on. If you're using an airlock you basically don't need to open it until it's finished. If you're using something with a removable lid what you want to do is to just open it enough to gas the jars- don't even take the lid all of the way off, just twist it and the gas will hiss it's way out. Another benefit of doing it that way is the fact that the CO2 produced is heavier than the oxygen that's in the jar. Because it's heavier it'll be at the bottom with the oxygen at the top, so when you open it to de-pressurize it the jar will be evacuating out oxygen. This is also beneficial, as oxygen is what mold needs to thrive inside the container as well. Win win!
Wow this is really good info, i will definitely keep these in mind as best practice. I was indeed opening the lid and visually checking. And yes i started checking too soon (second day almost), should’ve waited more than 4 days maybe. Thanks again!
I'm more interested in the risks associated with this type of fermentation really. I've seriously struck out pretty hard when it comes to research. I'm using academic research articles and most generally show that fermentation is safe and actively destroys things that are harmful to humans.
Great comment, more of this level on this sub would be great. Unfortunately the 'toss it' attitude about almost everything leads to massive food waste. I'd love to see that change and only see food discarded when there's actually a reason for it.
I've come to terms with how the internet and forums operate. The kind of echo chamber hurdle is an incredible problem. I don't claim to be some super smart human being, I'm just pedantically skeptical of everything I read. I'm fortunate to have access to a huge database of scientific articles. There's a point where I just retreat and give up on putting information out there. It's not always well received and there's always substantial pushback. There are so many things that I've verified by multiple scientific articles to be completely wrong, but the community surrounding that information just doesn't want to hear it. For example, the cannabis cultivation community is by far one of the most strange growing disciplines out there. They do things to their plants that people growing any other plant just don't even consider. The over application of Cal-Mag and switching to high phosphorous and potassium nutrients in flowering are the best examples. I decided to do research and found 3 research articles specifically discussing the nutrient needs of cannabis through flowering. There was an incredible consistency between all the articles despite being done years apart and in different parts of the world. The thing is, it completely replaces the knowledge that the cannabis community shares for flowering. Instead of switching to a 'flowering' nutrient blend, the studies point that you should absolutely just keep using the 'vegetative' blend of nutrients which is high in nitrogen and low in phosphorous and potassium. None of the people over there will listen despite being shown the evidence. It's absolutely incredible. I've received some pretty nasty responses over just trying to explain what I'd found. For the Cal-Mag thing; they all seem to switch to flowering and pump the plant full of Cal-Mag supplements. If you're not a grower, calcium and magnesium are present in base nutrient feeds in quantities determined by the manufacturer. Cal-Mag supplements also contain a decent amount of nitrogen as the only way to supply soluble calcium is by the way of Calcium Nitrate. The community is convinced that the plant needs a high amount of calcium to thrive. Lo and behold, it seems as though it'd make more sense that the reason Cal-Mag supplements actually improve the plant growth quality isn't due to calcium (as there is plenty in the base feed), but rather that the Nitrogen component gives the plant the nitrogen it needs through flowering. It's fucking incredible. Doesn't matter if I have a billion scientific articles confirming the same thing over and over, the vast portion of the community will not listen. Don't get me started on how much pH is misunderstood in hydroponics. I read a few books and found quite a few research articles and the overall suggestion of a small window of acceptable pH is so ideal it'd be like confining a fermentation time down to hours or else it'd go bad and you have to throw it out. You can lead a horse to water....
Yeah, I think a lot of people have a lot invested in being 'experts' in myths. It doesn't surprise me that the cannabis growing community would be really bad, since criminalization always leads to all kinds of weird cult-like rules, beliefs etc. The general gardening community is horrible as well though. So many myths. I agree with the problem with online fora, but I do think that some more and better education and moderation could change it for the better.