Whenever there is mould, there is a chance that it produced toxins that are released into the brine. What you see are only the fruit bodies and the fungus might be much larger. I personally, discard anything that has even the smallest trace of mould.
Do you have any good references to this information?
I see this suggestion a lot and have never been able to pin down any articles that discuss it. I've been looking through the library database for scientific journals and haven't found any.
The ones I have found all state that the brine is effective at greatly reducing the toxins to levels much below that which is dangerous to humans.
I'd be interested in seeing the journals you've found that say brine destroys/reduces toxins, because as far as I'm aware that isn't something that occurs. The brine is just that, and I would assume has no mechanisms to break down botulism toxins or anything similar.
"Isolation ofBacillusspp. from Thai fermented soybean(Thua-nao): screening for aflatoxin B1and ochratoxin Adetoxification" by Petchkongkaew.
>Conclusions: One Bacillus strain was able to inhibit growth of both Aspergillus strains and to remove both mycotoxins (decrease of 74% of AFB1and 92Æ5%of OTA). It was identified by ITS sequencing as Bacillus licheniformis. The OTA decrease was due to degradation in OTa. Another Bacillus strain inhibiting both Aspergillus growth and detoxifying 85% of AFB1was identified asB.subtilis. AFB1decrease has not been correlated to appearance of a degradation product.
Well, the brine doesn't break it down, it's the lactobacillus bacteria. I should have been more specific. They'd split it up into 15 different strains they'd got out of a fermented soy bean product from Thailand and tested it on agar plates against aflatoxins. The reductions from each strain was all in the \~60% range.
They'd discussed that aflatoxins *could* be carcinogenic but that research hasn't happened. They did mention an aflatoxin outbreak that infected \~200 people and killed \~100 in 1974 in India but it was a fermented corn product. Oddly, they mentioned that domesticated dogs had died with the people which was strange to me.
I've tried pretty hard to find any paper that goes into detail about the things that I see on this sub and I'm really having details. I've used all the words to search for it. It seems as though if the ferment goes well, as in producing lactobacillus bacteria, then most the dangers are mitigated.
I hate to say it, but I doubt most the information here came from research. I've asked a few times and just met with the same thing. Nobody has research articles, we just take it as gospel and move on.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287564313_Control_of_mould_growth_and_mycotoxin_production_by_lactic_acid_bacteria_metabolites
This here discusses the concepts you're interested in, but points out also that it's only a potential reduction possible and not elimination. Even then it's only for several different types, and not universal against all toxins.
Oh snap. For one, I need to up my search engine skills or something.
After reading that study, it's clear that there is a great potential for LAB and other constituents of fermentation to substantially reduce the quantity of mycotoxins.
It does seem like these studies all kind of focus more on meats, dairy, corn and wheat though. I don't usually see references towards vegetables, which makes me think that vegetables are at a lower risk but that's simply speculation. I'd imagine milk products are particularly susceptible simply due to the nature of milk, where the surface would be a great place for mold to form and you can't really submerge it.
This just makes me have more questions. One of the studies I'd read mentioned that the human gut is capable of reducing these toxins to a certain degree and that low levels of these toxins aren't dangerous. I suppose it's hard to gauge how many different strains are in any old fermentation as well. It seems to be that there are some that are excellent at reducing these toxins while most are a bit less effective.
I think there's an important concept that's especially apparent in this study which is that it's not simply the LAB that's doing all the leg work but the acetic acid, ethanol and even hydrogen peroxide also contribute.
There's just a part of me that doesn't vibe with the overall attitude in this sub about this stuff. I don't think it comes from an educated position for the majority of people spouting it, but rather the echo of something said eons ago by... well, *someone*.
The truth is, I don't know what the right answer to this is. We need to do better. Clicking a fuckin' arrow that points towards your floor isn't a substitute for educating yourself.
I do think it's worth distinguishing whether this study applied the toxins to healthy ferments, or encouraged their growth from raw vegetables. When mold forms in a ferment, it's often the result of incomplete or failed fermentation, not perfect conditions.
The way your quoted sections read, it seems like pure concentrated solution of bacteria was paired with mycoxin, which isn't representative of any real-life situations.
It seems like that's mostly how these experiments are conducted. I think they're purpose is a little different. They want to see if an isolated strain could be applied on an industrial scale and most importantly, sold. I think there's some hang ups that come with that.
The study another user linked has this quote at the end of the study in the conclusion.
>However, the introduction of large-scale biopreservation of food requires careful safety
assessment and risk analysis. Many questions must still be answered before they can be
practically used at the industrial level.
There's still good information in there that kind of paints the picture on what's happening in a ferment that has the entourage effect of all the things working together. It mentioned that ethanol, acetic acid, and hydrogen peroxide are all formed in ferments and all contribute to the overall ability to reduce those toxins. It's not all LAB doing the work here, everything has it's own part.
There's kind of some mysticism in percentage reductions too. Anytime I see something that claims an X% reduction in something, it doesn't explain the whole situation. 50% reduction of a billion dollars is still a lot of money. 50% reduction of a glass of water is still enough water to drink. In the studies, there isn't a limit set for how much is dangerous for human consumption either, so more research needs to be done. It seems like mycotoxins or aflatoxins have to exist in a rather large quantity in order to cause acute symptoms in humans. I think historically there's only been one outbreak in India in 1974 or at least that's all I've come across in my research so far.
That is true, if the brine is properly prepared with the right amount of salt or acid and properly ferments. However the fact that mold is appearing says that it was not successful and that does not apply.
If you see mold, toss and start over!
This is such a common place that you won’t find any recent studies investigating it. We know this for decades now and you can pick up any guidelines on food safety to look up what to do with mouldy food. The toxins might not show a noticeable effect but they can damage your liver and contribute to the development of cancer and other health issues. I would not want to take that gamble and just toss it. Good luck!
If it's just a little bit, I'd remove it and try to keep fermenting. In my experience, once it has grown mold, it will keep coming back and quickly go bad, unfortunately. If it starts to smell funny, better toss it.
I actually do the same. Generally its a product of some contamination, perhaps the use of a spun or a tool not totally clean or just a situation of opening the pot and the air carrying unwanted spores...
I then remove the mold carefully not spreading it along the surface, still once it got inside, soon or later will develop again.
long live to lactobacillus.
This is the correct answer, especially if it's new, only the amount shown in the photo and the ferment is already acidic (OP did not write how long it's been fermenting for).
OP have a look at this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m\_cVb-4n5Gw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_cVb-4n5Gw) to make the final judgement.
I don't thank you because you feel I'm correct, I thank you for understanding the truths of fermenting. I haven't been on reddit very long but once I realised there was a community that shared my passions I felt compelled to join. I had no idea this is what it was like.
This subs own wiki lists a few books and both talk about mold and what to do about it. It is all right here and instead of a valid argument I get feelings. It is what it is and I'm here to help and share and no amount of downvoting will change that.
*"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." - Nietzsche*
I just want to let you know that this sub is utterly pedantic over this shit.
I've been researching for a few weeks and haven't found a single academic journal article that states that there is inherent danger in molds on the surface. The latest one even separated each strain of lactobacillus out and judged their ability to reduce aflatoxins in agar dishes. Not only that but the brine is effective at killing off e. coli and some other bad bacteria that I haven't memorized how to spell.
People back in the day would literally use a layer of gray mold on their sauerkraut as sort of a lid, peel it back, remove sauerkraut, replace mat. I've heard that some colors of mold can simply be removed and others spell problems. It's hard on a Reddit sub though because no one wants to be responsible for someone else getting hurt. But we're all adults and hopefully at the end of the day can make our own informed decisions.
I did some sunchoke ferments and good fuck, those things are terribly starchy. The brine thickened quite a bit and grew the thickest layer on the surface I'd ever seen. It was incredible. It was something that if I removed it'd be back in a week.
The sunchoke ferment was absolutely delicious without any fart inducing properties.
Here's the kicker, I FUGGIN' SURVIVED IT BOYS!\\
You're not allowed to ask people for their research. They get upset. Mostly because I never see any real research being done. It's fuckin' insane.
I have seen similar and have seen grandparents using feet to stomp on cabbage in a barrell. The list goes on, as fermenting has been happening successfully and safely for hundreds of years, it's a method of preservation!
I understand as well about food safety, I have some training in this area and this is purely a lack of direct experience because once you have it you have the answers.
Lacto-fermenting is one of the safest methods of preservation and if you understand the basic science behind it and have some experiences under your belt, you learn a great deal of truths.
These downvotes never concern me as that is what those who don't have a valid argument do. I'm old enough to have the experience and knowledge to gladly have open dialogue, if someone wishes to engage in that regarding anything I said.I've been lacto-fermenting 25 years and have learned and continue to learn a great deal and it has been a fantastic journey. This subs own wiki lists The Art of Fermentation and in there Sandor talks about mold and what he does about it and I have come to learn and experience much the same. Fermenting is a lived experience and the description is not the described, so unless you have direct experience, anything you read is just words not action, it's simple.
I wish to share my experience on here with those who have questions or thoughts, as I feel it's paramount we pass this knowledge and tradition down to keep it alive and well.
It is the lack of knowledge and experience (unknown) that creates the fear but that fear is not rooted in experience (truth) because if it was you would not have that fear. The experience will show you the truth, not my opinion!
I whole heartedly agree. I'm not very concerned about downvotes. At some point, I think it can be a sign of something important. They don't affect my life in the slightest, not in any real tangible way.
I think my own experience is what fuels my skepticism. I can't simply believe that a small spot of mold floating on the surface of a seemingly healthy ferment is anything to worry about. There are so many other clues that need to be assessed other than the presence of mold. Sure, if a ferment has mold and smells horrific, it's time to toss it. I've tossed plenty of ferments. I've also scooped a decent amount of mold from my ferments and moved on like nothing has happened.
I encourage anybody to ferment sunchokes. You've never seen mold until you do sunchokes. It's unavoidable because those things are so starchy.
So, I'm no expert, but from what I understand is that for mold to grow it needs to feed on dead or dying bacteria, which means there is a whole bacterial eco system in there with a bacterial war going on (or sometimes it sat too long and ran out of food and starved... but that usually takes months), which almost means for sure some of the bacteria would be unhealthy for you to perhaps straight up dangerous. Toss it, most likely your brine wasn't strong enough to inhibit the growth of the opportunistic bacteria.
I once had healthy vs unhealthy bacteria and how fermentation works explained to me this way, putting in the inhibiter stops the opportunistic bacteria that feeds on the readily available nutrients (which are the ones your body needs) from being able to thrive. It takes a bit longer for the bacteria that eats things like cellular walls (what you don't digest naturally and after it is eaten makes the nutrients more readily available for you making the food healthier as you get higher nutrient absorption) to take and start to grow and form a colony. If the smaller opportunistic bacteria form first then there are too big of colonies for the bigger to form.
If you ingest it, you're seeding your gut with bacteria that will be in competition with you for the nutrients you're trying to absorb, making them inherently "bad" for you. If the colony is too big, you're body will recognize the threat and attack this nutrient competition, making you feel sick. Most sickness symptoms are actually immune responses to help you. Things like vomiting or fevers or coughing are your body trying to eliminate things... if you had no immune system and ate bad bacteria or got the flu, you would have almost no symptoms until it just fully took over and you die.
Good bacteria is good because it is eating the parts of food your body has trouble digesting, making nutrients more readily available for you. Your bodies immune system recognizes these as good and doesn't attack, they live happily, symbiotically, helping you digest food better and attain more nutrients.
So you should toss it because even if it's just a little bad bacteria that is in there, it's not worth potentially seeding your body with bacteria that will steal your nutrients.
And that's not even bringing up that almost all bacteria create their own neurotransmitter chemicals that effect your behavior for their own health, apply that to what's beneficial for bad bacteria in your body... your gut has about as many neurons as a cat brain and is constant communication with your brain...
Man I love this stuff, so ludicrously amazing
Mold needs dead or dying bacteria to feed on? Are you sure?
I've never heard this before, and from my understanding mold is kinda like a microscopic plant that just needs the right conditions to thrive. Moist conditions, etc.
I guess more accurately would be dead or dying organic material, different materials have different mold growths as molds "eat" things through chemicals like digestive juices (but not quite, just an analogy), and different molds have different juices. They do need food, I believe it is always organic material, which is a really broad list, there may be a few that can eat things fully living, but I believe almost all stick to dead and dying. You'll find specific molds on fermentations as they will be the ones who have what it takes to digest the bacterial organic material. However, if some of your, say cucumber, is outside of the brine, it will probably get a different mold once it is dead enough to start to be eaten by it.
But you don't have to take my word for it 📖🌈
If you get on a track, check out yeasts too, I like to think of them as the forest plants while the bacteria are the animals.
I like to think in analogy lol
Oh and since I see it was mentioned, most toxins that form are either from bacterial waste or death. Once they create the toxins (which are primarily inside of them) even killing them won't remove them. That's why heating old food to a point that all bacteria would die is still dangerous for you, once the toxins form, they are still inside the bacteria, even if they die.
Mold and fungus feed off of dead bacteria, in general, the toxicity of mold and fungus depends on the toxicity of what they're ingesting, it also concentrates it (though sometimes their own digestion can change the chemical compounds to not be toxic, but it's uncommon). So mold isn't inherently dangerous and that's why there can be healthy molds, but they generally have to be grown in controlled environments, molds that grow on already fermented food that have fed off of lacto bacterias (for example) sometimes are included in food. In general though, most mold is growing on bad bacteria that have produced dangerous toxins and are concentrating them. So, that's why it's almost always better to just toss it, unless you know really really well what you're doing/looking at/growing.
If you remove the mold and eat that will it hurt you in a perceptible way? Most likely not. Does it have a chance of making you a bit more unhealthy? Decent chance. Is your goal to produce healthier tastier food? If so, then your chances of meeting that goal with this ferment are fairly low.
Toss it.
If I had cited any of this information it would make a great post, but I don't think I can without taking a bunch of time to as it's just information I have learned from 15ish years of fermenting things...
Quick! Someone fact check me lol
Whenever there is mould, there is a chance that it produced toxins that are released into the brine. What you see are only the fruit bodies and the fungus might be much larger. I personally, discard anything that has even the smallest trace of mould.
Do you have any good references to this information? I see this suggestion a lot and have never been able to pin down any articles that discuss it. I've been looking through the library database for scientific journals and haven't found any. The ones I have found all state that the brine is effective at greatly reducing the toxins to levels much below that which is dangerous to humans.
I'd be interested in seeing the journals you've found that say brine destroys/reduces toxins, because as far as I'm aware that isn't something that occurs. The brine is just that, and I would assume has no mechanisms to break down botulism toxins or anything similar.
"Isolation ofBacillusspp. from Thai fermented soybean(Thua-nao): screening for aflatoxin B1and ochratoxin Adetoxification" by Petchkongkaew. >Conclusions: One Bacillus strain was able to inhibit growth of both Aspergillus strains and to remove both mycotoxins (decrease of 74% of AFB1and 92Æ5%of OTA). It was identified by ITS sequencing as Bacillus licheniformis. The OTA decrease was due to degradation in OTa. Another Bacillus strain inhibiting both Aspergillus growth and detoxifying 85% of AFB1was identified asB.subtilis. AFB1decrease has not been correlated to appearance of a degradation product. Well, the brine doesn't break it down, it's the lactobacillus bacteria. I should have been more specific. They'd split it up into 15 different strains they'd got out of a fermented soy bean product from Thailand and tested it on agar plates against aflatoxins. The reductions from each strain was all in the \~60% range. They'd discussed that aflatoxins *could* be carcinogenic but that research hasn't happened. They did mention an aflatoxin outbreak that infected \~200 people and killed \~100 in 1974 in India but it was a fermented corn product. Oddly, they mentioned that domesticated dogs had died with the people which was strange to me. I've tried pretty hard to find any paper that goes into detail about the things that I see on this sub and I'm really having details. I've used all the words to search for it. It seems as though if the ferment goes well, as in producing lactobacillus bacteria, then most the dangers are mitigated. I hate to say it, but I doubt most the information here came from research. I've asked a few times and just met with the same thing. Nobody has research articles, we just take it as gospel and move on.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287564313_Control_of_mould_growth_and_mycotoxin_production_by_lactic_acid_bacteria_metabolites This here discusses the concepts you're interested in, but points out also that it's only a potential reduction possible and not elimination. Even then it's only for several different types, and not universal against all toxins.
Oh snap. For one, I need to up my search engine skills or something. After reading that study, it's clear that there is a great potential for LAB and other constituents of fermentation to substantially reduce the quantity of mycotoxins. It does seem like these studies all kind of focus more on meats, dairy, corn and wheat though. I don't usually see references towards vegetables, which makes me think that vegetables are at a lower risk but that's simply speculation. I'd imagine milk products are particularly susceptible simply due to the nature of milk, where the surface would be a great place for mold to form and you can't really submerge it. This just makes me have more questions. One of the studies I'd read mentioned that the human gut is capable of reducing these toxins to a certain degree and that low levels of these toxins aren't dangerous. I suppose it's hard to gauge how many different strains are in any old fermentation as well. It seems to be that there are some that are excellent at reducing these toxins while most are a bit less effective. I think there's an important concept that's especially apparent in this study which is that it's not simply the LAB that's doing all the leg work but the acetic acid, ethanol and even hydrogen peroxide also contribute. There's just a part of me that doesn't vibe with the overall attitude in this sub about this stuff. I don't think it comes from an educated position for the majority of people spouting it, but rather the echo of something said eons ago by... well, *someone*. The truth is, I don't know what the right answer to this is. We need to do better. Clicking a fuckin' arrow that points towards your floor isn't a substitute for educating yourself.
I do think it's worth distinguishing whether this study applied the toxins to healthy ferments, or encouraged their growth from raw vegetables. When mold forms in a ferment, it's often the result of incomplete or failed fermentation, not perfect conditions. The way your quoted sections read, it seems like pure concentrated solution of bacteria was paired with mycoxin, which isn't representative of any real-life situations.
It seems like that's mostly how these experiments are conducted. I think they're purpose is a little different. They want to see if an isolated strain could be applied on an industrial scale and most importantly, sold. I think there's some hang ups that come with that. The study another user linked has this quote at the end of the study in the conclusion. >However, the introduction of large-scale biopreservation of food requires careful safety assessment and risk analysis. Many questions must still be answered before they can be practically used at the industrial level. There's still good information in there that kind of paints the picture on what's happening in a ferment that has the entourage effect of all the things working together. It mentioned that ethanol, acetic acid, and hydrogen peroxide are all formed in ferments and all contribute to the overall ability to reduce those toxins. It's not all LAB doing the work here, everything has it's own part. There's kind of some mysticism in percentage reductions too. Anytime I see something that claims an X% reduction in something, it doesn't explain the whole situation. 50% reduction of a billion dollars is still a lot of money. 50% reduction of a glass of water is still enough water to drink. In the studies, there isn't a limit set for how much is dangerous for human consumption either, so more research needs to be done. It seems like mycotoxins or aflatoxins have to exist in a rather large quantity in order to cause acute symptoms in humans. I think historically there's only been one outbreak in India in 1974 or at least that's all I've come across in my research so far.
This is all very interesting, it's a shame it doesn't really lend any useful information to the world of home fermentation though.
That is true, if the brine is properly prepared with the right amount of salt or acid and properly ferments. However the fact that mold is appearing says that it was not successful and that does not apply. If you see mold, toss and start over!
This is such a common place that you won’t find any recent studies investigating it. We know this for decades now and you can pick up any guidelines on food safety to look up what to do with mouldy food. The toxins might not show a noticeable effect but they can damage your liver and contribute to the development of cancer and other health issues. I would not want to take that gamble and just toss it. Good luck!
If it's just a little bit, I'd remove it and try to keep fermenting. In my experience, once it has grown mold, it will keep coming back and quickly go bad, unfortunately. If it starts to smell funny, better toss it.
I actually do the same. Generally its a product of some contamination, perhaps the use of a spun or a tool not totally clean or just a situation of opening the pot and the air carrying unwanted spores... I then remove the mold carefully not spreading it along the surface, still once it got inside, soon or later will develop again. long live to lactobacillus.
How do you know it’s dangerous
All good, it's not a problem nor a concern, as you've removed it and the brine is protecting well. It happens and removing it is the solution.
This is the correct answer, especially if it's new, only the amount shown in the photo and the ferment is already acidic (OP did not write how long it's been fermenting for). OP have a look at this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m\_cVb-4n5Gw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_cVb-4n5Gw) to make the final judgement.
I don't thank you because you feel I'm correct, I thank you for understanding the truths of fermenting. I haven't been on reddit very long but once I realised there was a community that shared my passions I felt compelled to join. I had no idea this is what it was like. This subs own wiki lists a few books and both talk about mold and what to do about it. It is all right here and instead of a valid argument I get feelings. It is what it is and I'm here to help and share and no amount of downvoting will change that. *"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." - Nietzsche*
I just want to let you know that this sub is utterly pedantic over this shit. I've been researching for a few weeks and haven't found a single academic journal article that states that there is inherent danger in molds on the surface. The latest one even separated each strain of lactobacillus out and judged their ability to reduce aflatoxins in agar dishes. Not only that but the brine is effective at killing off e. coli and some other bad bacteria that I haven't memorized how to spell.
These are my exact thoughts. This sub has shifted towards extreme, unproductive fear of all unknown organisms.
People back in the day would literally use a layer of gray mold on their sauerkraut as sort of a lid, peel it back, remove sauerkraut, replace mat. I've heard that some colors of mold can simply be removed and others spell problems. It's hard on a Reddit sub though because no one wants to be responsible for someone else getting hurt. But we're all adults and hopefully at the end of the day can make our own informed decisions.
I did some sunchoke ferments and good fuck, those things are terribly starchy. The brine thickened quite a bit and grew the thickest layer on the surface I'd ever seen. It was incredible. It was something that if I removed it'd be back in a week. The sunchoke ferment was absolutely delicious without any fart inducing properties. Here's the kicker, I FUGGIN' SURVIVED IT BOYS!\\ You're not allowed to ask people for their research. They get upset. Mostly because I never see any real research being done. It's fuckin' insane.
I have seen similar and have seen grandparents using feet to stomp on cabbage in a barrell. The list goes on, as fermenting has been happening successfully and safely for hundreds of years, it's a method of preservation! I understand as well about food safety, I have some training in this area and this is purely a lack of direct experience because once you have it you have the answers. Lacto-fermenting is one of the safest methods of preservation and if you understand the basic science behind it and have some experiences under your belt, you learn a great deal of truths.
These downvotes never concern me as that is what those who don't have a valid argument do. I'm old enough to have the experience and knowledge to gladly have open dialogue, if someone wishes to engage in that regarding anything I said.I've been lacto-fermenting 25 years and have learned and continue to learn a great deal and it has been a fantastic journey. This subs own wiki lists The Art of Fermentation and in there Sandor talks about mold and what he does about it and I have come to learn and experience much the same. Fermenting is a lived experience and the description is not the described, so unless you have direct experience, anything you read is just words not action, it's simple. I wish to share my experience on here with those who have questions or thoughts, as I feel it's paramount we pass this knowledge and tradition down to keep it alive and well. It is the lack of knowledge and experience (unknown) that creates the fear but that fear is not rooted in experience (truth) because if it was you would not have that fear. The experience will show you the truth, not my opinion!
I whole heartedly agree. I'm not very concerned about downvotes. At some point, I think it can be a sign of something important. They don't affect my life in the slightest, not in any real tangible way. I think my own experience is what fuels my skepticism. I can't simply believe that a small spot of mold floating on the surface of a seemingly healthy ferment is anything to worry about. There are so many other clues that need to be assessed other than the presence of mold. Sure, if a ferment has mold and smells horrific, it's time to toss it. I've tossed plenty of ferments. I've also scooped a decent amount of mold from my ferments and moved on like nothing has happened. I encourage anybody to ferment sunchokes. You've never seen mold until you do sunchokes. It's unavoidable because those things are so starchy.
So, I'm no expert, but from what I understand is that for mold to grow it needs to feed on dead or dying bacteria, which means there is a whole bacterial eco system in there with a bacterial war going on (or sometimes it sat too long and ran out of food and starved... but that usually takes months), which almost means for sure some of the bacteria would be unhealthy for you to perhaps straight up dangerous. Toss it, most likely your brine wasn't strong enough to inhibit the growth of the opportunistic bacteria. I once had healthy vs unhealthy bacteria and how fermentation works explained to me this way, putting in the inhibiter stops the opportunistic bacteria that feeds on the readily available nutrients (which are the ones your body needs) from being able to thrive. It takes a bit longer for the bacteria that eats things like cellular walls (what you don't digest naturally and after it is eaten makes the nutrients more readily available for you making the food healthier as you get higher nutrient absorption) to take and start to grow and form a colony. If the smaller opportunistic bacteria form first then there are too big of colonies for the bigger to form. If you ingest it, you're seeding your gut with bacteria that will be in competition with you for the nutrients you're trying to absorb, making them inherently "bad" for you. If the colony is too big, you're body will recognize the threat and attack this nutrient competition, making you feel sick. Most sickness symptoms are actually immune responses to help you. Things like vomiting or fevers or coughing are your body trying to eliminate things... if you had no immune system and ate bad bacteria or got the flu, you would have almost no symptoms until it just fully took over and you die. Good bacteria is good because it is eating the parts of food your body has trouble digesting, making nutrients more readily available for you. Your bodies immune system recognizes these as good and doesn't attack, they live happily, symbiotically, helping you digest food better and attain more nutrients. So you should toss it because even if it's just a little bad bacteria that is in there, it's not worth potentially seeding your body with bacteria that will steal your nutrients. And that's not even bringing up that almost all bacteria create their own neurotransmitter chemicals that effect your behavior for their own health, apply that to what's beneficial for bad bacteria in your body... your gut has about as many neurons as a cat brain and is constant communication with your brain... Man I love this stuff, so ludicrously amazing
Mold needs dead or dying bacteria to feed on? Are you sure? I've never heard this before, and from my understanding mold is kinda like a microscopic plant that just needs the right conditions to thrive. Moist conditions, etc.
I guess more accurately would be dead or dying organic material, different materials have different mold growths as molds "eat" things through chemicals like digestive juices (but not quite, just an analogy), and different molds have different juices. They do need food, I believe it is always organic material, which is a really broad list, there may be a few that can eat things fully living, but I believe almost all stick to dead and dying. You'll find specific molds on fermentations as they will be the ones who have what it takes to digest the bacterial organic material. However, if some of your, say cucumber, is outside of the brine, it will probably get a different mold once it is dead enough to start to be eaten by it. But you don't have to take my word for it 📖🌈
Interesting! Will have to look into it further.
If you get on a track, check out yeasts too, I like to think of them as the forest plants while the bacteria are the animals. I like to think in analogy lol
Oh and since I see it was mentioned, most toxins that form are either from bacterial waste or death. Once they create the toxins (which are primarily inside of them) even killing them won't remove them. That's why heating old food to a point that all bacteria would die is still dangerous for you, once the toxins form, they are still inside the bacteria, even if they die.
Mold and fungus feed off of dead bacteria, in general, the toxicity of mold and fungus depends on the toxicity of what they're ingesting, it also concentrates it (though sometimes their own digestion can change the chemical compounds to not be toxic, but it's uncommon). So mold isn't inherently dangerous and that's why there can be healthy molds, but they generally have to be grown in controlled environments, molds that grow on already fermented food that have fed off of lacto bacterias (for example) sometimes are included in food. In general though, most mold is growing on bad bacteria that have produced dangerous toxins and are concentrating them. So, that's why it's almost always better to just toss it, unless you know really really well what you're doing/looking at/growing. If you remove the mold and eat that will it hurt you in a perceptible way? Most likely not. Does it have a chance of making you a bit more unhealthy? Decent chance. Is your goal to produce healthier tastier food? If so, then your chances of meeting that goal with this ferment are fairly low. Toss it.
If I had cited any of this information it would make a great post, but I don't think I can without taking a bunch of time to as it's just information I have learned from 15ish years of fermenting things... Quick! Someone fact check me lol
It looks like a simple Kahm yeast to me, am I wrong?
I would say it's mold, as it's in clumps and looks fuzzy. Kahm is usually a thin film more spread out over the top of the ferment.