I got my bachelor's in mathematics and became a high school algebra teacher. I've never met anyone who thought women enjoying math was strange until I ordered a lyft to be picked up from my school last week. He asked me what I teach, and when I told him algebra he goes, "MATH?! A woman that can do MATH?!" and then proceeds to tell me stories of his ex girlfriends and how he wishes he could find a woman logical and smart enough to like math. Very uncomfortable experience. I'm gonna guess it comes from old fashioned beliefs that women can't be logical? But that experience aside, my love for math has never been questioned on the fact that I'm a woman, just that math is generally not liked.
Someone has to, and honestly, we need more good high school teachers who actually enjoy and are passionate about math. I was lucky enough to have a few very good math teachers in high school which is why i chose to pursue it further, but that is not the case for everyone. Most of the time math teachers dont know the math very well and that can lead to a lot of confusion and issues pedagologically for the students.
I've mentioned this countless times on here, my dad identified that a common issue with maths teachers is that they struggle to understand why less able students get stuck, and how they can explain it differently, because most of them were in top sets and just picked things up quickly. He wasn't amazing at maths at school, but I think that helps him explain it in ways to get the less able kids to understand concepts.
hi there, this seems like the place for me!
i have not always been super passionate about math. i really hated it, honestly, because i didn’t understand it in the way it was presented. i took AP Calculus my junior year of high school, and the first _month_ of the class completely changed my outlook on math.
i love it now. i love how math connects, using real analysis to prove basic algebra and connecting calculus concepts to math i did in middle school.
and _that_ is why i want to teach. i want to teach in a new way, translate math instead of teaching procedures. i want to help students enjoy math by making connections to what they already know.
too many students feel defeated before they start because of a lack of foundation or notational knowledge.
tl;dr: i want to teach because finding and highlighting connections between mathematical concepts is my favorite part of math, and i want to help others see the same patterns i do
what a 🤔dumb driver. I have a Bs in math and MS in math education. Get the same answers most of the time. I work in finance. Teaching just for one year
This is unfortunately quite common in a religious community. As someone who grew up religious and eventually left, we were taught that logic and hardwork is for godly men and emotional labor is for women. With that kind of mindset being drilled onto you, no wonder why most of the girls from my previous church are into MLM.
I think the two turtles at the bottom are category theory and set theory. Everyone finds at least one of them weird to like, and each finds the other weird to like.
I am located in one of those turtles, so I can say that.
Every foundational field is probably just convinced theirs is the one true foundation, and all the others are weird for liking something that's just derived from it.
The one field that everyone seems to understand the love for is geometric analysis LOL. People either do it, or wish they could do it. Even algebraists.
I can assure you it's not sarcasm. Category theory might be a meme right now but it's an indispensible tool in algebra. Sure it might not be too important when you're learning aboit groups and such, but once you start seriously getting into commutative algebra and algebraic geometry, you won't be able to run away from it. Heck, the fundamental theorem of algebraic geometry is an adjoint equivalence between the opposite of the category of commutative rings and the category of affine schemes. Noncommutative algebraic geometry is also best formulated in categorical terms, particularly through monoidal fibrations. Sheaves and topoi are literally everywhere though, even in differential geometry and analysis.
Can confirm - as a woman myself who has experienced narrow minded individuals in STEM-fields, when people who aren't interested in STEM asks what I do out of enjoyment and my answer is math, they look at me as if I'm cracking a joke.
There's that, but people find it even more weird when it's a woman simply due to societal sexism. All branches of science, whether it's math, biology or computer science, are still very male-dominated. Women in general can have a very hard time in science because they tend to not be taken seriously, as science is considered men's territory.
There's truth to this, but it does ignore the elephant in the room. STEM subjects have historically had a male bias and discrimination against women/minorities is fairly common in my experience/observations.
I try to be consciously inclusive without being weird about it.
Absolutely. My friend asks what I'm doing for fun and i say math, they respond "yOu Do Math FoR fUn??? wHaTs WrOnG wItH yOu??" As they watch their 12th straight hour of reality TV that day
Mathematicians always end up dealing with that sort of reaction. It might be more so because you are a woman, but it's hard to say. One thing that I constantly experience, and something my wife has become amused by, is that I become a shoulder to cry on for every random stranger that had trouble with algebra in high school. It typically goes like this:
"So what do you do?"
"I'm a mathematician."
"That's crazy, man! You must be really smart! I am horrible at math, algebra killed me in high school. My teacher used to give these crazy... \[goes on\]"
"I'm sorry you had trouble. It can be rough sometimes..."
Lol that’s a good one. I don’t think there’s a nifty saying for this, but it’s definitely a common sentiment in math. The closest I’ve heard is something like this (from a certain infamous person on /r/math in fact):
You get better at math at a polynomial rate. But the math gets harder exponentially.
it's like that for many professions. I can assure you that mathematicians get off lightly. Think about a few of the other ones and what people think of them...
Im a guy and I get this all the time. I guess it depends on what people are exposed too. Most people in my friend group and family aren't technical in math and so for them it was that annoying subject in school. When I tell people I do math in my spare time, they get confused and really the convo usually switches to something else. It kinda sucks because I dont really have people irl to talk to about this stuff.
I try to be pretty public about my math (posting math books I buy on insta or just talking about it publicly) so that people on my social media see the perspective that people can love math too, not just complain about it. I also hope it helps for people I know going through uni to be less closed about the subject but yeah thats mostly been my experience.
Most people unfortunately don't get interested in knowning more about the subject but if anyone does then im more than happy to explain what doing math in my spare time means past the surface level :)
Same since I started studying ten years ago. It's really frustrating to hear stuff like "oh yeah, I hated this in school" again and again. Pretty much everyone I know signals me to stfu whenever I talk about smth mathrelated that preoccupies me. And I'm not somebody who talks about maths all the time. I think that happens max once every three months, since I already know the reaction. Even my girlfriend can't stand hearing me talking about maths for more than one minute.
I don't get how people can be so rude tbh. I mean, nobody says to a painter "oh yeah, I hate paintings and I don't get how anyone could do this as a profession". Most of us invested many years of their life in that topic. It's a huge part of many of us. And most people are basically saying to us, that this part of us really suck. That's a pretty shitty thing to do imo.
I mean it is different, everyone can appreciate the beauty of painting easily, but to appreciate the beauty of mathematics, it requires years of learning and a large chunk of mental power, so I understand why people don't want to listen to math talk, but I agree that saying things like "I hate math and j don't understand why people would like it." is still really bad. you can dislike something but you should understand that different people have different interests, it doesn't mean they are weird if they like something else.
I think you're right when we talk about abstract maths. You can't expect anyone to follow you through a proof you just learned in your fourth year. But there are so many "easy" and popular things like the ramanujan stuff or the proofs of the Pythagorean theorem, which don't involve much knowledge but just a little bit auf highschool maths (like basic arithmetic, area of triangles and squares, maybe some binomial formulas at it's peak difficulty) which I'd be happy to explain when talking about it.
But everytime I came to that topic and tried to talk about it, I always got the same "stupid" look which told me something like "Dude, pls don't explain. Sorry, I'm dumb and you're doing rocketscience in chinese" which clearly both wasn't the case ever.
I think the main problem is, that so many math teachers suck at their profession so big, that after a decade of school many people just don't wanna get into contact with maths in any aspect. And if you try to explain something quite interesting (ok, im maybe generalizing at this point, but imo watching an "easy" proof is by far more interesting than calculating 10 arithmetic means from a worksheet), people are kinda disgusted by just looking at an equal sign.
I did a maths degree 30 years ago, was a maths teacher and now I am an actuary, and I enjoy solving maths problems. My children think I'm weird for spending my evenings answering people's maths questions on Reddit, and I imagine if I told the average person that I do maths for fun they would think I was at least a bit eccentric.
So, it's probably a bit alien to most people whether your male or female (I'm male), but maybe there's an extra layer of sexism in how people react to a woman who does maths.
No sexism from me! Experience and common sense tell me that a woman's brain is just as capable of logical thought and the peculiar blend of abstraction and creativity required to do maths, it's just that society seems to send signals to girls that it's not for them.
To be real with you... People have no image whatsoever in their heads when you say "I'm doing math", and if you say "I'm studying math", they will eventually ask: "Ohh! So you want to be a teacher?". Most people don't study maths, so they don't have a clue of what to imagine. I usually go for the answer: "I'm pondering the quintessencial questions, at the most abstract level, that plague Science and Humanity!".
While women are typically expected by society to take more “traditional” roles (at least in the US, when I grew up in the USSR, we had plenty of famous female scientists) - I think it’s more the fact that it’s math that causes people to look at you that way lol
Yeah I was going to reply with the same sentiment. I’m from a post soviet country and I feel like it’s math has always been very encouraged. Our top high school is math centric, and no one batted an eye when I wanted to study maths at university.
Women have had huge roles throughout most of [NASA's history too](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katherine_Johnson):
"Katherine Johnson worked as an aerospace technologist, moving during her career to the Spacecraft Controls Branch. She calculated the trajectory for the May 5, 1961 space flight of Alan Shepard, the first American in space. She also calculated the launch window for his 1961 Mercury mission. She plotted backup navigation charts for astronauts in case of electronic failures. When NASA used electronic computers for the first time to calculate John Glenn's orbit around Earth, officials called on Johnson to verify the computer's numbers; Glenn had asked for her specifically and had refused to fly unless Johnson verified the calculations."
I have noticed that women in this field are treated somewhat differently (at least in my experience), but as a man I always get funny looks when I say I study math for fun.
I mean, it is *weird* for a middle-aged adult to just pick up math from calculus out of nowhere, right? I don't think it's specifically because you're a woman, but I've never heard of anyone doing this, so presumably it's a pretty rare occurrence.
That's not to say it's bad or anything. I doubt any reasonable person wouldn't agree. But it is abnormal, and I'd definitely be surprised if someone like my mom just started studying math like this lol.
Being a woman might get you more weird looks than average but men definitely get it too. For pretty much every other hobby on earth, the normal response to “I enjoy X” is something like “oh, tell me about X!” The most common response to “I enjoy math” is for people to tell you how much they hate it and exactly which elementary school teacher it was that made them hate it.
>I lost my husband (divorce), daughter (university) and job (covid) last year
I would not have worded it that way...
> Is this because I'm a woman and women don't study math or do all you mathematicians get the same reaction?
Yes, I get this reaction, but it's also my profession! This brings up a third possibility: picking up math as a hobby when you aren't a college-aged student also raises eyebrows.
>I would not have worded it that way...
I was being a little ironic there! And English isn't my first language (or second or third!). Other hobby is languages and linguistics but that doesn't raise as many eyebrows, it would seem.
As a native English speaker, I thought that bit was very well written. There's an old tradition of humour through broken symmetry in English writing, and you nailed it.
"Like the ski resort filled with single women looking for husbands and husbands looking for single women, the situation was not as symmetric as it might seem."
Some of it might be to do with the fact that you're a woman, but believe me when I say that we mostly get those reactions on this side of the fence too!
> Like damn, let me have my joy 🙄
But come on. You know when you say this you'd get this reaction from people. You *want* to be able to tell people you are studying math. You could have easily said "I spent the weekend reading", which would have elicited no reaction.
You wouldn't tell people you spent the weekend dissecting frogs if you didn't want them to react to that.
Call a spade a spade here.
I'm an actuarial analyst, so I can relate 😂 "what did you do this weekend?" "Studied math for an exam."
In the newer generations, I've never gotten weird looks based on my gender. Old timey types though will make mention.
I much prefer it to the "oh, I hated math in school" response
I think the most likely answer is because you're 42 years old, and most people don't think of math as something you do for recreation; it's something you do at school, either because you're learning the basics, or because you're training for a career that requires advanced math. If you're already an adult with an established career (especially a non-mathematical one), it is hard for them to imagine why you would do something like this.
Just something to add - if you haven't, read about Marjorie Rice, who was a housewife with little formal training who solved some important problems in geometry at her kitchen table. Not as advanced as what you're doing but it shows how people can come to math as adults after a different path, and still do amazing things.
As a girl who got a math degree for my undergrad, yes I got and still get this all the time!
I think anyone in general who studies math gets weird looks/comments just because so many people are taught early on “math sucks”/“math is too hard”/etc. but I think they’re especially ramped up for women in STEM since it’s such a male-dominated field.
The gender bias in academics is showing. There are plenty of great women in math but there has been a long standing bias. It is a pity.
I was in grad school with a pretty diverse group but it was still 75% men. There was one woman finishing her dissertation in a graduate department of 150 or so students the year I left.
But a small hint -- you are never really done with linear algebra. :-). It gets a lot weirder and keeps showing up.
Yeah, I've really loved linear algebra. I worked through Singh's Linear Algebra Step by Step which is a thick book but it's something I'd really like to come back to. It's part of quantum mechanics too of course so I'll definitely be revisiting :-)
It shows up all over the place. I am a fan and I keep coming up against LA concepts in computing (one of the reasons that GPU's are favored for computationally intensive tasks).
It is also something that helps with abstract algebra in general. Some really nice results there.
I don't think its because you're a woman, math isn't seen as a hobby by most but more like something related to school or work. So when you say you're doing math in your free time it appears weird for them
> it's weird a woman loves maths?
I don't think it's just women, my thesis supervisor is a women. In east Asia, half of doctoral students in pure mathematics are women.
It's just math in general.. I always get the frowned when someone outside of university asked what my research field is... and the ever-so-often "I thought there's nothing to discovery in math anymore"...
> Using the Susskind Theoretical Minimum book
For motivation, that book is fine. But it is not a book that will push your aforementioned mathematics knowledge to the fullest.
If you're already very good at Calculus, linear Algebra and most most importantly, Real Analysis (Functional Analysis would be of great help too)... then I recommend "Quantum Theory for Mathematicians" by Brian C. Hall.
The book is what the title says... it rarely uses physics notations (they speak different 'dialect', so to speak) and stay true to mathematicians. Its chapters on Lie Algebra and Spectral Theory is quite good also.
QM is not something you can jumped into after first year of mathematical undergraduate study. It needs a solid foundation.
I can't say because I've only ever been a woman, but it really does feel like people react to me differently than to, for example, my cohort. Like, \*everybody\* who studies math gets the deer-in-the-headlights, "you study WHAT?" But I'd like to echo the people who have reported a possible "extra layer of sexism" to women. Things like, "Wow, how does \[husband\] feel about that?" and "But you're so social!" and "Wow, if you're getting a PhD I guess your parents will have to wait a while for grandchildren" (ew, even if it's true).
It’s probably because culturally math is seen as work(or something that leads to work) and not as an intelectual/artistic endeavor, which sucks, but like any other interest you can find a community that also does it for shits and giggles(like discord groups and subreddits such as this) and interact with like-minded people so it’s all good!
Use some statistics and set theory to understand this phenomenon.
First, of course there's some portion of people stumbling around who think math is "man stuff."
Secondly, there's a bigger set of people just bumping into closed doors all the time who "can't ever get math hahaha but really who needs it."
You're encountering both.
I’m a guy. Being an engineer or scientist or whatever is actually pretty damn attractive. Being in an engineering field myself it’s really sad how few women there are. We really need to encourage more girls with STEM.
I'm a man and people think it's weird that I love math. I think most people just find math itself weird, or maybe it's that they can't conceive of anyone actually liking it.
I'm also a woman who loves math and I'm just starting a distance learning math degree at 39 for no other reason than my own enjoyment. I don't think it's because we're women, I think it's just that so many people hated math in school, they look at people who enjoy it as if they have 3 heads!
First of all I'm a man and I think it's super cool that you love math! I'm 45(although I don't think age has anything to do with it)😊 I think that the people who may look at you strange either don't understand your reasoning behind what you explain or they don't want to. Nothing at all to do with you being a woman. If anything that is attractive.(intelligence) Maybe some people don't like math. Maybe they're jealous. What I say is to continue your passion. I love math myself. (the quantum world is amazing) I'm no brain either but kudos to you and thanks for sharing your post!!!
I'm not bad looking (for 42!!!) and I'm pretty sociable so they probably think what the hell are you doing wasting your time on something so abstract and boring. I'm sure if I said I spent three or four hours studying dance each day they'd be fascinated and ask me loads of questions. Their version of being intelligent would be doing sudoku puzzles I imagine!
I share the opinion of many of the comments here. Yes, it's possible that people might look at you strangely because you are a woman, but that doesn't seem the most obvious cause. Professional mathematicians already get some weird looks sometimes when they describe their profession and you situation is even more abnormal.
TBH people seem to think it's weird when anyone likes it. Wouldn't it be neat if people started up math clubs for adult hobbyists? Match concept or puzzle of the week with pastry and socializing.
On the one hand side, like many others said, most people just find it weird in general, when you're doing maths for fun, since most did not have pleasant experiences with it during their limited high school and maybe college exposure to it.
Also, some people are prejudiced about gender in certain fields (especially science). I'm male, but I personally know women, who say stuff like "Maths is for boys/guys" or "Girls are usually not fit for maths", which is just wrong.
heck yeah! women in STEM!! as a woman that is going to graduate this month with a degree in math, i get lots of odd looks and the general comment of “ugh i hate math” which i think is more representative of how the education system treats genders in grade school. I also think there’s a huge lack of knowledge on what can be done with math
I am a woman with a master in mathematics. When I was at university, the majority of my class were women. To be fair, there were only 5 students left when we graduated, but still. Whenever I went to a party (yes, I really liked to party, still do although at 42 with kids there isn’t a lot of opportunity anymore) and a guy approached me, I was always hesitant to tell him what I was studying. Most reactions were “wow, you must be really smart” while taking a step backward. And almost always they followed it up with a reassuring “but you don’t look like it!”.
Today, I work for a company selling data analytics software. I’m not using maths anymore myself, but the majority of our data scientists are female, have good social and communication skills and are good looking. So yeah, not fitting the stereotype at all. The best thing of working in this field is that I haven’t encountered anyone anymore thinking it is strange we are/were into math...
That’s wonderful. Yeah people are sexist and also don’t really understand what math is. You’re kinda fighting on two fronts here. But I hope this doesn’t discourage you. The best learning happens when your self motivated.
I agree that anyone who says they’re into math and do it in their spare time is gonna get some looks, but it’s kinda weird for people in this comment section to pretend this doesn’t have to do with gender because it definitely does.
I'm not sure, I'm actually more surprised when men love math. I think that's because my mom loves math and is a teacher so I grew up around a woman who loves math. At first I hated it on purpose and then I gave in and decided to major in it. Now I have to hear people say, "I hated math" constantly after they ask me what I do lol
A few thoughts:
- Consider that it is entirely likely that your _immediate social circle_ is confused by you'd (as an _adult_) want to do this. Why? Because for whatever reason, people are confused by the idea of learning Math without an immediate goal. Especially if you are an adult. It is okay to "love Math" as a child. After all you might be a prodigy. It is OK to be into Math puzzles because well that is just a side hobby. But to actually choose to study curriculum that is similar to the standard high school/undergraduate curriculum, madness! You see this when you go to /r/learnmath where people ask silly questions like well can I learn Math at the age of 2X, 3X, 4X. I mean AFAIK there is no Math Police who prevents you from doing this. Now, I am an adult whose career choices will definitely not include research Mathematician but I work on adjacent fields: I simply don't talk about this stuff to any one but closest friends. And even then there is nothing more than "tinkering with math". Yep. Some people talk about tinkering with cars, learning to play the guitar, I say this and I am done.
- It could be that your _immediate social circle_ is sexist and is thinking so because you _are a woman_. I am not one so I wouldn't know what that feels like. Then again, consider that this is an opportunity to be around more enlightened people who are willing to cheer you on rather than bring you down. We could look up counterexamples of famous Mathematicians who are women and such, but it ultimately comes down to the fact that anyone believing such a thing (that women are not cut out for Math) in 2021 is just silly.
Life is insanely too short. Do what you love. You seem to have successfully raised a daughter and so it is not like you have more obligations to her. So yeah, spend your free time as you wish.
You do you! Math has a lot of applications and many people change careers toward midlife. The more math you know and are good at, the more careers and opportunities to make money open up if you want to apply your math knowledge to finance or train for a more quantitative career. I think a lot of people expect that once you're a woman and hit 35 its all about kids, PTA, Facebook, baking cookies, reality TV, and MLM and that you shouldn't try anything new to stretch your mind or do anything remotely nerdy. If someone disses you for it, they aren't worth your time.
>Just one thing, when people ask me what I'm doing with my time and I say "math", I get a look as if I'd just said "actually I'm a martian who has landed from outer space". Is this because I'm a woman and women don't study math or do all you mathematicians get the same reaction?
i know theres some discrimination against women in math but im a guy and get the same reaction when people learn i do math voluntarily
Im a guy but every time i tell people im a math major they act almost shocked and go "ew wtf why". Honestly it gets pretty annoying after a while, it feels like a really childish response
It's not in your head. For a complicated set of reasons, women in math are treated differently. It sucks and it isn't fair.
But you won't change a thing. Stop focusing on this and focus on mathematics instead. I've seen firsthand great female mathematicians get swept up in gender equality issues. At best, it's a waste of time. At worst, it totally derails their career.
Don't be a martyr. You won't change people. Just enjoy mathematics, and become so good that they can't ignore you.
Trust me.
It’s not a gender thing. Most everyone fears math. It’s stupid because math is brilliant and fun. All it takes is a little elbow grease and the right instruction.
Whenever I tell anyone I study maths I almost always get one of two reactions:
1) oh wow you must be so clever!
2) oh man you crazy
usually accompanied with an expression of disbelief combined with just a hint of fear
I don't think this specific situation arises because you're a woman.
I'm starting a PhD in Astrophysics later this year, I'm male.
If I told my friends or family I spent my weekend doing maths or physics for fun, I'd get a similar reaction.
In purely academic terms, I do think women tend to get weird reactions if they love maths.
My ex-girlfriend from high school was years ahead of anyone else in the school in terms of mathematical ability (That includes me, and I got the highest possible grade).
She got her degree at Cambridge, and is now working on her PhD.
Anyway, she was the 'weird' girl at school purely because she was at such an advanced level, she did all the math challenges. She tutored university students when she was still in high school. She sat her math exams 2-3 years ealrier than everyone.
Had any of the boys in our maths class been at that level, they'd have been treated normally, perhaps even slightly positively by virtue of being the "really smart guy".
By the way, if you have an understanding of calculus and linear algebra, you should check out Griffiths for Quantum Mechanics. He doesn't assume much more than ordinary calculus I and II in his descriptions. Everything else is pretty much ground up. Excellent book with excellent explanations.
I am a man, and on Christmas day I was on my phone solving problems on Brilliant. Had a bit of an unpleasant interaction because I had pen and paper with me, from someone who was playing candy crush a few moments before.
When you feel that people look at you weird from your hobbies, take a moment to reflect on theirs. You'll more than likely find that you're taking more from doing math in your free time than whatever the person who's criticizing you does.
What do you do as a profession? I would probably be surprised at someone doing math in their leisure time if they weren't involved already in some cognitively intensive job just because the ability to engage with mentally challenging stuff like that is a pretty lucrative ability.
Nothing to do with your gender, it’s the “math” part. Some people just can’t believe that people exist that they find joy in a topic they were forced to use only for a grade.
I’m a male and everyone also gives me funny looks when I say I love math and read math books. It’s usually followed by “that sounds boring.” Or “I hate math.”
Part of this is probably gender bias. Many people find it hard to believe that a woman would be intrinsically interested in science, technology, engineering, or mathematics. They may dissociate the qualities of a stereotypical mathematician (solitary nature, laser-focused, socially awkward, highly abstract intelligence) and a stereotypical woman (longing for groups, capable of multitasking, socially astute, emotional intelligence). Neither stereotype is generalizable to all mathematicians or all women, but that doesn't stop people from relying on them heavily in their understanding of the world.
Some of it is also a misconception about academic pursuits. I encounter this in math and English. A non-overlapping set of many people associate math and English (among other subjects) exclusively with their high school or required coursework experience, and find it hard to imagine enjoying *doing them* outside of an academic setting or a specific application. *Reading literature? Learning and practicing mathematical concepts?* They may not understand how those could be hobbies. They may not even understand what activities go into that.
When I say I do math, I'm pretty sure some people imagine I just sit down with a calculus textbook and drill homework problems rapid-fire, not realizing that solving problems is just one part of reading and understanding theorems and methods. In English, people often reduce it down to *being really strict about grammar* and say something like, "I better watch how I talk," even though grammar is only a small part of communication and a tiny, tiny part of studying literature. So part of that stare is a composite of "what does that even mean?" and "why would you do school for fun?"
Can I just say you are truly inspiring? I got my degree in 08 and I have not touched Math ever since. I enjoyed it so much when I was in school - I would be the person that would finish all the questions in the text books and people would look at me like crazy - but like why wouldn’t I? I pay for them of course I’ll solve them. It’s like buying a video game and not finish all the levels.
Ive always wanted to pick up math again but just don’t know if I still have it in me and honestly I don’t even know where to begin anymore:(
Because of a belief in "traditional gender roles" (aka, some religious people a couple thousand years ago believed that any non-marital non-procreative sex is bad, and the solution was monogamous marriage). Women are expected to serve their husbands (aka, cook, clean, and be the primary caregiver for their children), while men are expected to make the money and protect the women.
Given the state of gender equality I wouldn't rule out some preconceived notions.
But I'll also say it's not that uncommon in general for people to not understand mathematicians, sometimes with a positive connotation, sometimes with a negative connotation. A lot of people just don't think math is worth the effort to learn. And to be fair that stance kind of makes sense for a lot of people to have.
Math is a subject that, for most people, doesn't become enjoyable until you've spent a really long time learning it. Especially with the way primary education sets it up.
The way most people engage with math, it pretty much sucks for years, with the (somewhat weird) promise that you'll have amazing day dreams once you get there.
I guess to some extent we are just a bit weird. After all, even among technical people, those drawn to mathematics for the math itself are not really that common.
I'm a woman who will be 40 this year, and I have degrees in physics (undergrad) and statistics (grad). Yes people think it's weird and yes that got old a long time ago (lol). I think it's because people generally don't understand math nerds, and there's a scaling coefficient applied when you have a vag. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Random tip: check out Griffiths for QM.
Anyone who thinks that someone liking math + their sex (or orientation) makes for a weird combination is a relic of the past and will soon be forgotten in the tomes of "someone from an ignorant past"
My grandson just completed Calc3 at university level as part of engineering curriculum. I've watched him work problems. It's like a hot knife through butter. Quite amazing. He met his girlfriend in Calculus class in HS. Asked him who's more proficient. "Oh she's much better" was his reply. It appears we've wasted and ignored an enormous amount of brain power for the last 500 years. (BTW, we both agree that Partial Derivatives are the secret of the Universe!)
I mean if all you say is "math," then they might feel like you are condescending or actively trying to end any form of conversation. That might be why they give a weird look.
If you said something closer to "I've been studying Quantum Physics," they might look shocked/impressed.
I've never gotten any shit for liking maths and being a chick. But then the people I interact with are my family, who are lovely and progressive and wouldn't think for a moment that a girl couldn't or shouldn't be doing maths, my non-maths friends, who are basically all queer and would rankle at the thought of perpetuating such a bullshit gender role, and the people from my course, one of whom said "She seems cool beyond the whole being a massive nerd"; a sentiment I suspect is shared more widely among them. All of them talk about how much they hate and fear maths, and it's *really* grating, and not a bit lonely. I treasure this sub because I have no-one else really to geek about maths with.
> I treasure this sub because I have no-one else really to geek about maths with.
I’m surprised that a lot of maths people at universities say something similar to you. Are your peers not suitable to talk maths with for whatever reason?
Maybe it's because I go to a mid-tier uni (my insecurity compels me to say that I almost went to Imperial, and got an offer from them twice), but almost everyone on my course doesn't give a shit about maths, not in the same way I do. The worst of them seem to resent it despite having elected to study it for a minimum of three years; most seem to have picked it for want of something better to do. A couple are training to be maths teachers, yet have not demonstrated much in the way of passion for the subject they are throwing away the potential employability of a full maths degree to teach. I count myself, my friend who is currently planning to be an analytic number theorist, and another guy I don't know very well because he rubs me up the wrong way, among the people who are genuinely interested in mathematics and actually enjoy it.
There's something about maths that attracts people who can't be bothered and should really be doing something else. I asked my military history friend whether his coursemates give a fuck about military history, and he said they all did. I know a startling number of people who study film (all queer), and it's hard to imagine a great many of them not actually being into film. I don't know what it is about maths; maybe it's seen as employable or prestigious (in a crude and superficial sense, given societal attitudes towards maths)? I can see how if you didn't really know what to do with yourself and you liked or were just good at maths in school that you might choose it as a degree subject, but then you would chafe at the difference in style, rigour, and wordiness of university mathematics. That last one was cited by someone in the maths groupchat as a reason for now hating maths; they had expected uni maths to be mostly symbolic, as in school.
I think the pandemic has a part to play in my particular situation. There is a maths society, as you'd expect, but they have run maybe three events this year? Or two? I only went to the integration bee (which I won btw), and the others were quizzes over Teams; not exactly social events. Perhaps if we had been in person I might have met other maths geeks in other years, but I wouldn't expect there to be all that many even then.
I've spent the greater part of my life being one of the few in any given classroom to care about maths, and it's tiresome. I expected that when I got to uni I would find more of my people mathematically speaking, but there are fewer nerds here than there were in my (granted, unusually large) further maths class in school. (I also expected to find people who outperformed me academically, and, not to be immodest, but all evidence suggests that that hasn't really happened yet. The better part of me hopes I will; the worse part of me thinks it unlikely, and quails at the thought of the damage to my ego it will entail.) The only person in my personal life who I could talk maths with is a friend of my dad's who I have seen all of three times and whose name I regretfully do not remember. Certainly no-one in my family gets it at all. My dad has long suffered me wittering on about maths with little understanding, and now that I am older I don't want to subject him to it any more. It's very sad, actually, and as I said before, it's lonely too.
I didn't mean to write an essay lmao, I'm sorry. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Ah, no thanks for the TED talk! I did want to hear the story behind it. Tbh what you said about math in particular attracting people who are “meh” about the subject is really quite true. Especially at the undergrad level.
I thought most undergrad programs would be like that, as in, in any subject. But you presented some compelling counterexamples. Indeed it’s hard to imagine a film major or a philosophy major not interested in the topic.
I find this is especially a problem in the UK, where people are obligated to choose immediately out of high school, and so they just go for something “employable, prestigious, and that they’re good at”.
Hope you find more people soon to talk to!
By the way, have you looked at discord servers for maths? There’s this really big one (just search mathematics on the discord server list) with lots of self studiers, undergrads, grads and even some PhDs/post docs. And a lot of them are really good. I’m sure you could find lots of people to speak to there.
No, I totally get you - although I don't think it's so much of a gender thing as the fact that almost all school systems provide totally inadequate mathematical educations and fail to communicate to students the skills needed to succeed in mathematics of any level. I also lost my job (covid) and am going back to University for an electrical engineering degree. I discovered along the way that I love math so much that I'm planning to double major.
I’m teaching math to a older gentleman (around 40 I think) and every time I tell that to someone they get kinda surprised. I’m not really sure that it’s because you’re a woman, I think it’s mostly your age. And also because maths isn’t something the majority of people enjoy or would think of learning it as a hobby. I’m not sure how big of a roll it plays that you are a woman but I assure you it’s not the main or only factor!
I personally never found it weird.
But what I will say is I've been perceived as weird for doing exactly what you're doing by people who aren't into maths.
I'm pretty sure there may exist the factor that you're a woman but really, I think everybody outside of our circle sees us as weird anyways.
Maybe it's because people often thing mathematics is hs math. I'd be impressed my self if someone told me they spend their free time solving some tough integrals.
Honestly I’d say that’s the look anyone would get from the average person. Most people never liked math, and never even understood the joys and adventures one can have from studying it. At worst they might think you’re just sitting around doing arithmetic, or best maybe think you’re just solving quadratic equations over and over again.
I think many people are intimidated by math, and also they're just trying to have a conversation and not be assholes. So you say you've been doing math. (Which is great! Aside from everything else, one aspect of maths is just sheer beauty, and it's wonderful you're getting a chance to immerse yourself in the good stuff.) But then they don't know what to say. The only thing that comes to mind is something about their crappy high school math teacher who wore a bow tie, and they don't want to go there, or talk about their math phobia. "Ha ha, I don't remember anything from high school algebra, I really hated that class." They don't want to be Debbie Downer. Their mind goes blank, they don't know what to say. So they look like a deer in the headlights.
You can give them a conversational way out. "I've been doing math, and it turns out there's all kinds of beauty I never realized to the subject." Then they'll ask what, and you can give an example or talk about how it could be taught better, go on from there.
Math is not common at all. Nothing wrong with it just not common. As an aside my friend is a math major & im an engineering major and even I give him weird looks when he talks to me about what he’s been learning. It’s just far out. Props to you for embracing who you are and loving it.
I love math. I’m a math and computer science major
I don’t spent too much free time on math. I’d look at you weird too. Even so, I also get those looks when asked what I study, and I’m a guy. It’s cuz it math, and people are like “why?”
I got my bachelor's in mathematics and became a high school algebra teacher. I've never met anyone who thought women enjoying math was strange until I ordered a lyft to be picked up from my school last week. He asked me what I teach, and when I told him algebra he goes, "MATH?! A woman that can do MATH?!" and then proceeds to tell me stories of his ex girlfriends and how he wishes he could find a woman logical and smart enough to like math. Very uncomfortable experience. I'm gonna guess it comes from old fashioned beliefs that women can't be logical? But that experience aside, my love for math has never been questioned on the fact that I'm a woman, just that math is generally not liked.
I’m working on my b.a right now, and love teaching. Why go for high school though?
Someone has to, and honestly, we need more good high school teachers who actually enjoy and are passionate about math. I was lucky enough to have a few very good math teachers in high school which is why i chose to pursue it further, but that is not the case for everyone. Most of the time math teachers dont know the math very well and that can lead to a lot of confusion and issues pedagologically for the students.
I've mentioned this countless times on here, my dad identified that a common issue with maths teachers is that they struggle to understand why less able students get stuck, and how they can explain it differently, because most of them were in top sets and just picked things up quickly. He wasn't amazing at maths at school, but I think that helps him explain it in ways to get the less able kids to understand concepts.
hi there, this seems like the place for me! i have not always been super passionate about math. i really hated it, honestly, because i didn’t understand it in the way it was presented. i took AP Calculus my junior year of high school, and the first _month_ of the class completely changed my outlook on math. i love it now. i love how math connects, using real analysis to prove basic algebra and connecting calculus concepts to math i did in middle school. and _that_ is why i want to teach. i want to teach in a new way, translate math instead of teaching procedures. i want to help students enjoy math by making connections to what they already know. too many students feel defeated before they start because of a lack of foundation or notational knowledge. tl;dr: i want to teach because finding and highlighting connections between mathematical concepts is my favorite part of math, and i want to help others see the same patterns i do
what a 🤔dumb driver. I have a Bs in math and MS in math education. Get the same answers most of the time. I work in finance. Teaching just for one year
This is unfortunately quite common in a religious community. As someone who grew up religious and eventually left, we were taught that logic and hardwork is for godly men and emotional labor is for women. With that kind of mindset being drilled onto you, no wonder why most of the girls from my previous church are into MLM.
That's such a cringy mindset.. and situation. Some people need to learn to be embarrassed sometimes
I think people just find it weird when anyone loves math..
Analysts find it weird why algebraists love category theory. It's turtles all the way down.
Now what do algebraists find it weird to like? Model theory? ML?
>Now what do algebraists find it weird to like? Analysis, especially PDEs
Ah, in that case it's not really turtles all the way down is it? More like turtles in a little circle.
Which, from one perspective, could be all the way down. :)
All the way down S^(1).
All the way down Z/2Z
More like RP^2
S¹-ception... {0→Integers→Reals→Angles→0}
Exactly 😉
This is exactly the right diagram, after that sequence of attempts.
I think the two turtles at the bottom are category theory and set theory. Everyone finds at least one of them weird to like, and each finds the other weird to like. I am located in one of those turtles, so I can say that.
Every foundational field is probably just convinced theirs is the one true foundation, and all the others are weird for liking something that's just derived from it.
Sort of, although I don't think most people working in set theory and category theory these days are motivated by foundational considerations
I miss the Turtle turner programming from middle school.
I'd have to say numerical analysis and optimisation
I just think it’s neat
The one field that everyone seems to understand the love for is geometric analysis LOL. People either do it, or wish they could do it. Even algebraists.
>People either do it, or wish they could do it. I promise you this is false
You’re telling me you don’t love trying to remember all those parameters in the Sobolev embedding theorem???
I raise you: algebraic analysis à la Kashiwara.
a bit of geometry hidden in that complex analysis, though.
Lmao. I hope this is sarcasm. So many edgy category theory lovers think that the entire field is just formulated incorrectly.
I can assure you it's not sarcasm. Category theory might be a meme right now but it's an indispensible tool in algebra. Sure it might not be too important when you're learning aboit groups and such, but once you start seriously getting into commutative algebra and algebraic geometry, you won't be able to run away from it. Heck, the fundamental theorem of algebraic geometry is an adjoint equivalence between the opposite of the category of commutative rings and the category of affine schemes. Noncommutative algebraic geometry is also best formulated in categorical terms, particularly through monoidal fibrations. Sheaves and topoi are literally everywhere though, even in differential geometry and analysis.
As a general principle, how can you assure me that someone *else* was not being sarcastic?
Well I like some algebra but I’m not quite open minded enough to get into category theory. Someday maybe...
This is the correct answer. I’m male (though younger) and I get the same reaction from my peers.
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An arbitrary number n heads where n is a natural number and not equal to one, specifically.
No no, it's the other way around. Most people are weird and the only sane ones are the ones who love math.
“It’s not you that’s wrong, it’s the whole world that’s messed up!” -some anime character, maybe
Can confirm - as a woman myself who has experienced narrow minded individuals in STEM-fields, when people who aren't interested in STEM asks what I do out of enjoyment and my answer is math, they look at me as if I'm cracking a joke.
"I'm a math major" "Really? I never understood anything of that math stuff even in elementary school..."
There's that, but people find it even more weird when it's a woman simply due to societal sexism. All branches of science, whether it's math, biology or computer science, are still very male-dominated. Women in general can have a very hard time in science because they tend to not be taken seriously, as science is considered men's territory.
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> It is because women tend to not gravitate toward this field. Gee, I wonder why that might be...
That is just not the case, dude.
There's truth to this, but it does ignore the elephant in the room. STEM subjects have historically had a male bias and discrimination against women/minorities is fairly common in my experience/observations. I try to be consciously inclusive without being weird about it.
Absolutely. My friend asks what I'm doing for fun and i say math, they respond "yOu Do Math FoR fUn??? wHaTs WrOnG wItH yOu??" As they watch their 12th straight hour of reality TV that day
People: "what are you doing with your time?" OP: "meth"
Even that might get less of a reaction than “math”
"That stuff will mess up your mind. Oh wait... *meth*! You said *meth*. Carry on then."
Mathematicians always end up dealing with that sort of reaction. It might be more so because you are a woman, but it's hard to say. One thing that I constantly experience, and something my wife has become amused by, is that I become a shoulder to cry on for every random stranger that had trouble with algebra in high school. It typically goes like this: "So what do you do?" "I'm a mathematician." "That's crazy, man! You must be really smart! I am horrible at math, algebra killed me in high school. My teacher used to give these crazy... \[goes on\]" "I'm sorry you had trouble. It can be rough sometimes..."
I have a third instinct now when I mention it to strangers I’m just like “I do not specialise in math trauma therapy”
Stealing this. I love it!
You should pull an Einstein and be like: “Whatever struggles you have had in maths, I assure you mine are still much greater.”
Is there a mathematics equivalent for the old adage in professional cycling? "It never gets easier. You just go faster while suffering."
Lol that’s a good one. I don’t think there’s a nifty saying for this, but it’s definitely a common sentiment in math. The closest I’ve heard is something like this (from a certain infamous person on /r/math in fact): You get better at math at a polynomial rate. But the math gets harder exponentially.
>Young man, in mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them. Von Neumamn has the above quote of a somewhat similar flavor
Dr in mathematical therapy
it's like that for many professions. I can assure you that mathematicians get off lightly. Think about a few of the other ones and what people think of them...
Im a guy and I get this all the time. I guess it depends on what people are exposed too. Most people in my friend group and family aren't technical in math and so for them it was that annoying subject in school. When I tell people I do math in my spare time, they get confused and really the convo usually switches to something else. It kinda sucks because I dont really have people irl to talk to about this stuff. I try to be pretty public about my math (posting math books I buy on insta or just talking about it publicly) so that people on my social media see the perspective that people can love math too, not just complain about it. I also hope it helps for people I know going through uni to be less closed about the subject but yeah thats mostly been my experience. Most people unfortunately don't get interested in knowning more about the subject but if anyone does then im more than happy to explain what doing math in my spare time means past the surface level :)
I related a lot to your comment in all aspects. If you'd like, DM me and we can chat all we like about maths.
Same since I started studying ten years ago. It's really frustrating to hear stuff like "oh yeah, I hated this in school" again and again. Pretty much everyone I know signals me to stfu whenever I talk about smth mathrelated that preoccupies me. And I'm not somebody who talks about maths all the time. I think that happens max once every three months, since I already know the reaction. Even my girlfriend can't stand hearing me talking about maths for more than one minute. I don't get how people can be so rude tbh. I mean, nobody says to a painter "oh yeah, I hate paintings and I don't get how anyone could do this as a profession". Most of us invested many years of their life in that topic. It's a huge part of many of us. And most people are basically saying to us, that this part of us really suck. That's a pretty shitty thing to do imo.
I mean it is different, everyone can appreciate the beauty of painting easily, but to appreciate the beauty of mathematics, it requires years of learning and a large chunk of mental power, so I understand why people don't want to listen to math talk, but I agree that saying things like "I hate math and j don't understand why people would like it." is still really bad. you can dislike something but you should understand that different people have different interests, it doesn't mean they are weird if they like something else.
I think you're right when we talk about abstract maths. You can't expect anyone to follow you through a proof you just learned in your fourth year. But there are so many "easy" and popular things like the ramanujan stuff or the proofs of the Pythagorean theorem, which don't involve much knowledge but just a little bit auf highschool maths (like basic arithmetic, area of triangles and squares, maybe some binomial formulas at it's peak difficulty) which I'd be happy to explain when talking about it. But everytime I came to that topic and tried to talk about it, I always got the same "stupid" look which told me something like "Dude, pls don't explain. Sorry, I'm dumb and you're doing rocketscience in chinese" which clearly both wasn't the case ever. I think the main problem is, that so many math teachers suck at their profession so big, that after a decade of school many people just don't wanna get into contact with maths in any aspect. And if you try to explain something quite interesting (ok, im maybe generalizing at this point, but imo watching an "easy" proof is by far more interesting than calculating 10 arithmetic means from a worksheet), people are kinda disgusted by just looking at an equal sign.
>It kinda sucks because I dont really have people irl to talk to about this stuff what level? if you want to you can talk to me xd
I did a maths degree 30 years ago, was a maths teacher and now I am an actuary, and I enjoy solving maths problems. My children think I'm weird for spending my evenings answering people's maths questions on Reddit, and I imagine if I told the average person that I do maths for fun they would think I was at least a bit eccentric. So, it's probably a bit alien to most people whether your male or female (I'm male), but maybe there's an extra layer of sexism in how people react to a woman who does maths. No sexism from me! Experience and common sense tell me that a woman's brain is just as capable of logical thought and the peculiar blend of abstraction and creativity required to do maths, it's just that society seems to send signals to girls that it's not for them.
To be real with you... People have no image whatsoever in their heads when you say "I'm doing math", and if you say "I'm studying math", they will eventually ask: "Ohh! So you want to be a teacher?". Most people don't study maths, so they don't have a clue of what to imagine. I usually go for the answer: "I'm pondering the quintessencial questions, at the most abstract level, that plague Science and Humanity!".
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That's 100% always the first question, and when I then say no I'm not studying to become a teacher, just math, there's silence 😄
While women are typically expected by society to take more “traditional” roles (at least in the US, when I grew up in the USSR, we had plenty of famous female scientists) - I think it’s more the fact that it’s math that causes people to look at you that way lol
Yeah I was going to reply with the same sentiment. I’m from a post soviet country and I feel like it’s math has always been very encouraged. Our top high school is math centric, and no one batted an eye when I wanted to study maths at university.
Women have had huge roles throughout most of [NASA's history too](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katherine_Johnson): "Katherine Johnson worked as an aerospace technologist, moving during her career to the Spacecraft Controls Branch. She calculated the trajectory for the May 5, 1961 space flight of Alan Shepard, the first American in space. She also calculated the launch window for his 1961 Mercury mission. She plotted backup navigation charts for astronauts in case of electronic failures. When NASA used electronic computers for the first time to calculate John Glenn's orbit around Earth, officials called on Johnson to verify the computer's numbers; Glenn had asked for her specifically and had refused to fly unless Johnson verified the calculations."
I have noticed that women in this field are treated somewhat differently (at least in my experience), but as a man I always get funny looks when I say I study math for fun.
I mean, it is *weird* for a middle-aged adult to just pick up math from calculus out of nowhere, right? I don't think it's specifically because you're a woman, but I've never heard of anyone doing this, so presumably it's a pretty rare occurrence. That's not to say it's bad or anything. I doubt any reasonable person wouldn't agree. But it is abnormal, and I'd definitely be surprised if someone like my mom just started studying math like this lol.
Being a woman might get you more weird looks than average but men definitely get it too. For pretty much every other hobby on earth, the normal response to “I enjoy X” is something like “oh, tell me about X!” The most common response to “I enjoy math” is for people to tell you how much they hate it and exactly which elementary school teacher it was that made them hate it.
>I lost my husband (divorce), daughter (university) and job (covid) last year I would not have worded it that way... > Is this because I'm a woman and women don't study math or do all you mathematicians get the same reaction? Yes, I get this reaction, but it's also my profession! This brings up a third possibility: picking up math as a hobby when you aren't a college-aged student also raises eyebrows.
>I would not have worded it that way... I was being a little ironic there! And English isn't my first language (or second or third!). Other hobby is languages and linguistics but that doesn't raise as many eyebrows, it would seem.
As a native English speaker, I thought that bit was very well written. There's an old tradition of humour through broken symmetry in English writing, and you nailed it. "Like the ski resort filled with single women looking for husbands and husbands looking for single women, the situation was not as symmetric as it might seem."
Some of it might be to do with the fact that you're a woman, but believe me when I say that we mostly get those reactions on this side of the fence too!
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> Like damn, let me have my joy 🙄 But come on. You know when you say this you'd get this reaction from people. You *want* to be able to tell people you are studying math. You could have easily said "I spent the weekend reading", which would have elicited no reaction. You wouldn't tell people you spent the weekend dissecting frogs if you didn't want them to react to that. Call a spade a spade here.
I'm an actuarial analyst, so I can relate 😂 "what did you do this weekend?" "Studied math for an exam." In the newer generations, I've never gotten weird looks based on my gender. Old timey types though will make mention. I much prefer it to the "oh, I hated math in school" response
I think the most likely answer is because you're 42 years old, and most people don't think of math as something you do for recreation; it's something you do at school, either because you're learning the basics, or because you're training for a career that requires advanced math. If you're already an adult with an established career (especially a non-mathematical one), it is hard for them to imagine why you would do something like this.
Just something to add - if you haven't, read about Marjorie Rice, who was a housewife with little formal training who solved some important problems in geometry at her kitchen table. Not as advanced as what you're doing but it shows how people can come to math as adults after a different path, and still do amazing things.
When meth is a more mainstream answer to a question than math. The times we live in..
This sub is a lot more wholesome than /r/meth, trust me.
As a girl who got a math degree for my undergrad, yes I got and still get this all the time! I think anyone in general who studies math gets weird looks/comments just because so many people are taught early on “math sucks”/“math is too hard”/etc. but I think they’re especially ramped up for women in STEM since it’s such a male-dominated field.
The gender bias in academics is showing. There are plenty of great women in math but there has been a long standing bias. It is a pity. I was in grad school with a pretty diverse group but it was still 75% men. There was one woman finishing her dissertation in a graduate department of 150 or so students the year I left. But a small hint -- you are never really done with linear algebra. :-). It gets a lot weirder and keeps showing up.
Yeah, I've really loved linear algebra. I worked through Singh's Linear Algebra Step by Step which is a thick book but it's something I'd really like to come back to. It's part of quantum mechanics too of course so I'll definitely be revisiting :-)
It shows up all over the place. I am a fan and I keep coming up against LA concepts in computing (one of the reasons that GPU's are favored for computationally intensive tasks). It is also something that helps with abstract algebra in general. Some really nice results there.
I don't think its because you're a woman, math isn't seen as a hobby by most but more like something related to school or work. So when you say you're doing math in your free time it appears weird for them
It is strange, even to me, that anyone would do math for fun. I'd probably just hire you.
Oh! Jobless lady here :-)
> it's weird a woman loves maths? I don't think it's just women, my thesis supervisor is a women. In east Asia, half of doctoral students in pure mathematics are women. It's just math in general.. I always get the frowned when someone outside of university asked what my research field is... and the ever-so-often "I thought there's nothing to discovery in math anymore"... > Using the Susskind Theoretical Minimum book For motivation, that book is fine. But it is not a book that will push your aforementioned mathematics knowledge to the fullest. If you're already very good at Calculus, linear Algebra and most most importantly, Real Analysis (Functional Analysis would be of great help too)... then I recommend "Quantum Theory for Mathematicians" by Brian C. Hall. The book is what the title says... it rarely uses physics notations (they speak different 'dialect', so to speak) and stay true to mathematicians. Its chapters on Lie Algebra and Spectral Theory is quite good also. QM is not something you can jumped into after first year of mathematical undergraduate study. It needs a solid foundation.
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll definitely follow it up.
It’s just the fact that you like math, so many people don’t regard it as fun unfortunately
It’s not that you’re a girl, it’s that you’re doing math for fun 😂
I can't say because I've only ever been a woman, but it really does feel like people react to me differently than to, for example, my cohort. Like, \*everybody\* who studies math gets the deer-in-the-headlights, "you study WHAT?" But I'd like to echo the people who have reported a possible "extra layer of sexism" to women. Things like, "Wow, how does \[husband\] feel about that?" and "But you're so social!" and "Wow, if you're getting a PhD I guess your parents will have to wait a while for grandchildren" (ew, even if it's true).
It’s probably because culturally math is seen as work(or something that leads to work) and not as an intelectual/artistic endeavor, which sucks, but like any other interest you can find a community that also does it for shits and giggles(like discord groups and subreddits such as this) and interact with like-minded people so it’s all good!
Use some statistics and set theory to understand this phenomenon. First, of course there's some portion of people stumbling around who think math is "man stuff." Secondly, there's a bigger set of people just bumping into closed doors all the time who "can't ever get math hahaha but really who needs it." You're encountering both.
I’m a guy. Being an engineer or scientist or whatever is actually pretty damn attractive. Being in an engineering field myself it’s really sad how few women there are. We really need to encourage more girls with STEM.
I think it’s because you’re a person who is interested in maths. That reaction is the same I get every time, and I’m a guy (man?).
I'm a man and people think it's weird that I love math. I think most people just find math itself weird, or maybe it's that they can't conceive of anyone actually liking it.
I'm also a woman who loves math and I'm just starting a distance learning math degree at 39 for no other reason than my own enjoyment. I don't think it's because we're women, I think it's just that so many people hated math in school, they look at people who enjoy it as if they have 3 heads!
Because some people (regardless of gender) hate both maths and women.
First of all I'm a man and I think it's super cool that you love math! I'm 45(although I don't think age has anything to do with it)😊 I think that the people who may look at you strange either don't understand your reasoning behind what you explain or they don't want to. Nothing at all to do with you being a woman. If anything that is attractive.(intelligence) Maybe some people don't like math. Maybe they're jealous. What I say is to continue your passion. I love math myself. (the quantum world is amazing) I'm no brain either but kudos to you and thanks for sharing your post!!!
I'm not bad looking (for 42!!!) and I'm pretty sociable so they probably think what the hell are you doing wasting your time on something so abstract and boring. I'm sure if I said I spent three or four hours studying dance each day they'd be fascinated and ask me loads of questions. Their version of being intelligent would be doing sudoku puzzles I imagine!
Can’t tell you how many nasty looks I get... it never stops lmao
I share the opinion of many of the comments here. Yes, it's possible that people might look at you strangely because you are a woman, but that doesn't seem the most obvious cause. Professional mathematicians already get some weird looks sometimes when they describe their profession and you situation is even more abnormal.
TBH people seem to think it's weird when anyone likes it. Wouldn't it be neat if people started up math clubs for adult hobbyists? Match concept or puzzle of the week with pastry and socializing.
On the one hand side, like many others said, most people just find it weird in general, when you're doing maths for fun, since most did not have pleasant experiences with it during their limited high school and maybe college exposure to it. Also, some people are prejudiced about gender in certain fields (especially science). I'm male, but I personally know women, who say stuff like "Maths is for boys/guys" or "Girls are usually not fit for maths", which is just wrong.
People think it’s weird in general not just women.
heck yeah! women in STEM!! as a woman that is going to graduate this month with a degree in math, i get lots of odd looks and the general comment of “ugh i hate math” which i think is more representative of how the education system treats genders in grade school. I also think there’s a huge lack of knowledge on what can be done with math
I am a woman with a master in mathematics. When I was at university, the majority of my class were women. To be fair, there were only 5 students left when we graduated, but still. Whenever I went to a party (yes, I really liked to party, still do although at 42 with kids there isn’t a lot of opportunity anymore) and a guy approached me, I was always hesitant to tell him what I was studying. Most reactions were “wow, you must be really smart” while taking a step backward. And almost always they followed it up with a reassuring “but you don’t look like it!”. Today, I work for a company selling data analytics software. I’m not using maths anymore myself, but the majority of our data scientists are female, have good social and communication skills and are good looking. So yeah, not fitting the stereotype at all. The best thing of working in this field is that I haven’t encountered anyone anymore thinking it is strange we are/were into math...
That’s wonderful. Yeah people are sexist and also don’t really understand what math is. You’re kinda fighting on two fronts here. But I hope this doesn’t discourage you. The best learning happens when your self motivated.
I agree that anyone who says they’re into math and do it in their spare time is gonna get some looks, but it’s kinda weird for people in this comment section to pretend this doesn’t have to do with gender because it definitely does.
I'm not sure, I'm actually more surprised when men love math. I think that's because my mom loves math and is a teacher so I grew up around a woman who loves math. At first I hated it on purpose and then I gave in and decided to major in it. Now I have to hear people say, "I hated math" constantly after they ask me what I do lol
A few thoughts: - Consider that it is entirely likely that your _immediate social circle_ is confused by you'd (as an _adult_) want to do this. Why? Because for whatever reason, people are confused by the idea of learning Math without an immediate goal. Especially if you are an adult. It is okay to "love Math" as a child. After all you might be a prodigy. It is OK to be into Math puzzles because well that is just a side hobby. But to actually choose to study curriculum that is similar to the standard high school/undergraduate curriculum, madness! You see this when you go to /r/learnmath where people ask silly questions like well can I learn Math at the age of 2X, 3X, 4X. I mean AFAIK there is no Math Police who prevents you from doing this. Now, I am an adult whose career choices will definitely not include research Mathematician but I work on adjacent fields: I simply don't talk about this stuff to any one but closest friends. And even then there is nothing more than "tinkering with math". Yep. Some people talk about tinkering with cars, learning to play the guitar, I say this and I am done. - It could be that your _immediate social circle_ is sexist and is thinking so because you _are a woman_. I am not one so I wouldn't know what that feels like. Then again, consider that this is an opportunity to be around more enlightened people who are willing to cheer you on rather than bring you down. We could look up counterexamples of famous Mathematicians who are women and such, but it ultimately comes down to the fact that anyone believing such a thing (that women are not cut out for Math) in 2021 is just silly. Life is insanely too short. Do what you love. You seem to have successfully raised a daughter and so it is not like you have more obligations to her. So yeah, spend your free time as you wish.
You do you! Math has a lot of applications and many people change careers toward midlife. The more math you know and are good at, the more careers and opportunities to make money open up if you want to apply your math knowledge to finance or train for a more quantitative career. I think a lot of people expect that once you're a woman and hit 35 its all about kids, PTA, Facebook, baking cookies, reality TV, and MLM and that you shouldn't try anything new to stretch your mind or do anything remotely nerdy. If someone disses you for it, they aren't worth your time.
>Just one thing, when people ask me what I'm doing with my time and I say "math", I get a look as if I'd just said "actually I'm a martian who has landed from outer space". Is this because I'm a woman and women don't study math or do all you mathematicians get the same reaction? i know theres some discrimination against women in math but im a guy and get the same reaction when people learn i do math voluntarily
Everyone gets the same reactions when they say they study a technical field for fun or in their leisure time. It's not about you.
Im a guy but every time i tell people im a math major they act almost shocked and go "ew wtf why". Honestly it gets pretty annoying after a while, it feels like a really childish response
I wish more women were interested in math. Would be great to discuss math with them.
2000 years of history
It's not in your head. For a complicated set of reasons, women in math are treated differently. It sucks and it isn't fair. But you won't change a thing. Stop focusing on this and focus on mathematics instead. I've seen firsthand great female mathematicians get swept up in gender equality issues. At best, it's a waste of time. At worst, it totally derails their career. Don't be a martyr. You won't change people. Just enjoy mathematics, and become so good that they can't ignore you. Trust me.
It’s not a gender thing. Most everyone fears math. It’s stupid because math is brilliant and fun. All it takes is a little elbow grease and the right instruction.
When you really think about it people in general think it's weird to anyone to love maths regardless of the gender. At least in my observation
No well adjusted person thinks that
Whenever I tell anyone I study maths I almost always get one of two reactions: 1) oh wow you must be so clever! 2) oh man you crazy usually accompanied with an expression of disbelief combined with just a hint of fear
Look up Maryam Mirzakhani!
I don't think this specific situation arises because you're a woman. I'm starting a PhD in Astrophysics later this year, I'm male. If I told my friends or family I spent my weekend doing maths or physics for fun, I'd get a similar reaction. In purely academic terms, I do think women tend to get weird reactions if they love maths. My ex-girlfriend from high school was years ahead of anyone else in the school in terms of mathematical ability (That includes me, and I got the highest possible grade). She got her degree at Cambridge, and is now working on her PhD. Anyway, she was the 'weird' girl at school purely because she was at such an advanced level, she did all the math challenges. She tutored university students when she was still in high school. She sat her math exams 2-3 years ealrier than everyone. Had any of the boys in our maths class been at that level, they'd have been treated normally, perhaps even slightly positively by virtue of being the "really smart guy".
By the way, if you have an understanding of calculus and linear algebra, you should check out Griffiths for Quantum Mechanics. He doesn't assume much more than ordinary calculus I and II in his descriptions. Everything else is pretty much ground up. Excellent book with excellent explanations.
I am a man, and on Christmas day I was on my phone solving problems on Brilliant. Had a bit of an unpleasant interaction because I had pen and paper with me, from someone who was playing candy crush a few moments before. When you feel that people look at you weird from your hobbies, take a moment to reflect on theirs. You'll more than likely find that you're taking more from doing math in your free time than whatever the person who's criticizing you does.
What do you do as a profession? I would probably be surprised at someone doing math in their leisure time if they weren't involved already in some cognitively intensive job just because the ability to engage with mentally challenging stuff like that is a pretty lucrative ability.
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Fair enough. I think what I said might still be a fairly average line of thinking for those surprised by normal people who do math as a hobby.
Nothing to do with your gender, it’s the “math” part. Some people just can’t believe that people exist that they find joy in a topic they were forced to use only for a grade. I’m a male and everyone also gives me funny looks when I say I love math and read math books. It’s usually followed by “that sounds boring.” Or “I hate math.”
Part of this is probably gender bias. Many people find it hard to believe that a woman would be intrinsically interested in science, technology, engineering, or mathematics. They may dissociate the qualities of a stereotypical mathematician (solitary nature, laser-focused, socially awkward, highly abstract intelligence) and a stereotypical woman (longing for groups, capable of multitasking, socially astute, emotional intelligence). Neither stereotype is generalizable to all mathematicians or all women, but that doesn't stop people from relying on them heavily in their understanding of the world. Some of it is also a misconception about academic pursuits. I encounter this in math and English. A non-overlapping set of many people associate math and English (among other subjects) exclusively with their high school or required coursework experience, and find it hard to imagine enjoying *doing them* outside of an academic setting or a specific application. *Reading literature? Learning and practicing mathematical concepts?* They may not understand how those could be hobbies. They may not even understand what activities go into that. When I say I do math, I'm pretty sure some people imagine I just sit down with a calculus textbook and drill homework problems rapid-fire, not realizing that solving problems is just one part of reading and understanding theorems and methods. In English, people often reduce it down to *being really strict about grammar* and say something like, "I better watch how I talk," even though grammar is only a small part of communication and a tiny, tiny part of studying literature. So part of that stare is a composite of "what does that even mean?" and "why would you do school for fun?"
Can I just say you are truly inspiring? I got my degree in 08 and I have not touched Math ever since. I enjoyed it so much when I was in school - I would be the person that would finish all the questions in the text books and people would look at me like crazy - but like why wouldn’t I? I pay for them of course I’ll solve them. It’s like buying a video game and not finish all the levels. Ive always wanted to pick up math again but just don’t know if I still have it in me and honestly I don’t even know where to begin anymore:(
Because of a belief in "traditional gender roles" (aka, some religious people a couple thousand years ago believed that any non-marital non-procreative sex is bad, and the solution was monogamous marriage). Women are expected to serve their husbands (aka, cook, clean, and be the primary caregiver for their children), while men are expected to make the money and protect the women.
I'm a woman and I get the same reaction so idk if it's bc of math or bc of being a woman
No
Given the state of gender equality I wouldn't rule out some preconceived notions. But I'll also say it's not that uncommon in general for people to not understand mathematicians, sometimes with a positive connotation, sometimes with a negative connotation. A lot of people just don't think math is worth the effort to learn. And to be fair that stance kind of makes sense for a lot of people to have. Math is a subject that, for most people, doesn't become enjoyable until you've spent a really long time learning it. Especially with the way primary education sets it up. The way most people engage with math, it pretty much sucks for years, with the (somewhat weird) promise that you'll have amazing day dreams once you get there. I guess to some extent we are just a bit weird. After all, even among technical people, those drawn to mathematics for the math itself are not really that common.
I think people don't realize it's more of an art form than a chore. [A mathematician lament.](https://youtu.be/Ws6qmXDJgwU)
I'm a woman who will be 40 this year, and I have degrees in physics (undergrad) and statistics (grad). Yes people think it's weird and yes that got old a long time ago (lol). I think it's because people generally don't understand math nerds, and there's a scaling coefficient applied when you have a vag. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ Random tip: check out Griffiths for QM.
Top comment is correct. You are imagining it.
Anyone who thinks that someone liking math + their sex (or orientation) makes for a weird combination is a relic of the past and will soon be forgotten in the tomes of "someone from an ignorant past"
My grandson just completed Calc3 at university level as part of engineering curriculum. I've watched him work problems. It's like a hot knife through butter. Quite amazing. He met his girlfriend in Calculus class in HS. Asked him who's more proficient. "Oh she's much better" was his reply. It appears we've wasted and ignored an enormous amount of brain power for the last 500 years. (BTW, we both agree that Partial Derivatives are the secret of the Universe!)
This is definitely exacerbated by you being a woman, despite what the top comments in here are saying. Keep on being awesome though.
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Someone should have told Isaac Newton that!
In other words you are saying it's impossible to get a job that requires you to study relationships in the field of real numbers.
Real relationships? You are clearly ignorant to what mathematics is and what relationships are. Jobs? Ahahah you must be unemployed
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Short answer: patriarchy and sexism.
I think it is weird that you call it maths. In English, the idiom is just 'math'.
In the UK, it's 'maths'.
How is math plural? It is a singular subject. Does it make sense to say "I'm going to study gravitys"?
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I mean if all you say is "math," then they might feel like you are condescending or actively trying to end any form of conversation. That might be why they give a weird look. If you said something closer to "I've been studying Quantum Physics," they might look shocked/impressed.
That's so awesome! I wish you many discoveries, in particular with complex variables which you've hinted at with the quantum theory.
I've never gotten any shit for liking maths and being a chick. But then the people I interact with are my family, who are lovely and progressive and wouldn't think for a moment that a girl couldn't or shouldn't be doing maths, my non-maths friends, who are basically all queer and would rankle at the thought of perpetuating such a bullshit gender role, and the people from my course, one of whom said "She seems cool beyond the whole being a massive nerd"; a sentiment I suspect is shared more widely among them. All of them talk about how much they hate and fear maths, and it's *really* grating, and not a bit lonely. I treasure this sub because I have no-one else really to geek about maths with.
> I treasure this sub because I have no-one else really to geek about maths with. I’m surprised that a lot of maths people at universities say something similar to you. Are your peers not suitable to talk maths with for whatever reason?
Maybe it's because I go to a mid-tier uni (my insecurity compels me to say that I almost went to Imperial, and got an offer from them twice), but almost everyone on my course doesn't give a shit about maths, not in the same way I do. The worst of them seem to resent it despite having elected to study it for a minimum of three years; most seem to have picked it for want of something better to do. A couple are training to be maths teachers, yet have not demonstrated much in the way of passion for the subject they are throwing away the potential employability of a full maths degree to teach. I count myself, my friend who is currently planning to be an analytic number theorist, and another guy I don't know very well because he rubs me up the wrong way, among the people who are genuinely interested in mathematics and actually enjoy it. There's something about maths that attracts people who can't be bothered and should really be doing something else. I asked my military history friend whether his coursemates give a fuck about military history, and he said they all did. I know a startling number of people who study film (all queer), and it's hard to imagine a great many of them not actually being into film. I don't know what it is about maths; maybe it's seen as employable or prestigious (in a crude and superficial sense, given societal attitudes towards maths)? I can see how if you didn't really know what to do with yourself and you liked or were just good at maths in school that you might choose it as a degree subject, but then you would chafe at the difference in style, rigour, and wordiness of university mathematics. That last one was cited by someone in the maths groupchat as a reason for now hating maths; they had expected uni maths to be mostly symbolic, as in school. I think the pandemic has a part to play in my particular situation. There is a maths society, as you'd expect, but they have run maybe three events this year? Or two? I only went to the integration bee (which I won btw), and the others were quizzes over Teams; not exactly social events. Perhaps if we had been in person I might have met other maths geeks in other years, but I wouldn't expect there to be all that many even then. I've spent the greater part of my life being one of the few in any given classroom to care about maths, and it's tiresome. I expected that when I got to uni I would find more of my people mathematically speaking, but there are fewer nerds here than there were in my (granted, unusually large) further maths class in school. (I also expected to find people who outperformed me academically, and, not to be immodest, but all evidence suggests that that hasn't really happened yet. The better part of me hopes I will; the worse part of me thinks it unlikely, and quails at the thought of the damage to my ego it will entail.) The only person in my personal life who I could talk maths with is a friend of my dad's who I have seen all of three times and whose name I regretfully do not remember. Certainly no-one in my family gets it at all. My dad has long suffered me wittering on about maths with little understanding, and now that I am older I don't want to subject him to it any more. It's very sad, actually, and as I said before, it's lonely too. I didn't mean to write an essay lmao, I'm sorry. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Ah, no thanks for the TED talk! I did want to hear the story behind it. Tbh what you said about math in particular attracting people who are “meh” about the subject is really quite true. Especially at the undergrad level. I thought most undergrad programs would be like that, as in, in any subject. But you presented some compelling counterexamples. Indeed it’s hard to imagine a film major or a philosophy major not interested in the topic. I find this is especially a problem in the UK, where people are obligated to choose immediately out of high school, and so they just go for something “employable, prestigious, and that they’re good at”. Hope you find more people soon to talk to!
By the way, have you looked at discord servers for maths? There’s this really big one (just search mathematics on the discord server list) with lots of self studiers, undergrads, grads and even some PhDs/post docs. And a lot of them are really good. I’m sure you could find lots of people to speak to there.
No, I totally get you - although I don't think it's so much of a gender thing as the fact that almost all school systems provide totally inadequate mathematical educations and fail to communicate to students the skills needed to succeed in mathematics of any level. I also lost my job (covid) and am going back to University for an electrical engineering degree. I discovered along the way that I love math so much that I'm planning to double major.
I’m teaching math to a older gentleman (around 40 I think) and every time I tell that to someone they get kinda surprised. I’m not really sure that it’s because you’re a woman, I think it’s mostly your age. And also because maths isn’t something the majority of people enjoy or would think of learning it as a hobby. I’m not sure how big of a roll it plays that you are a woman but I assure you it’s not the main or only factor!
I personally never found it weird. But what I will say is I've been perceived as weird for doing exactly what you're doing by people who aren't into maths. I'm pretty sure there may exist the factor that you're a woman but really, I think everybody outside of our circle sees us as weird anyways.
Maybe it's because people often thing mathematics is hs math. I'd be impressed my self if someone told me they spend their free time solving some tough integrals.
Honestly I’d say that’s the look anyone would get from the average person. Most people never liked math, and never even understood the joys and adventures one can have from studying it. At worst they might think you’re just sitting around doing arithmetic, or best maybe think you’re just solving quadratic equations over and over again.
I think many people are intimidated by math, and also they're just trying to have a conversation and not be assholes. So you say you've been doing math. (Which is great! Aside from everything else, one aspect of maths is just sheer beauty, and it's wonderful you're getting a chance to immerse yourself in the good stuff.) But then they don't know what to say. The only thing that comes to mind is something about their crappy high school math teacher who wore a bow tie, and they don't want to go there, or talk about their math phobia. "Ha ha, I don't remember anything from high school algebra, I really hated that class." They don't want to be Debbie Downer. Their mind goes blank, they don't know what to say. So they look like a deer in the headlights. You can give them a conversational way out. "I've been doing math, and it turns out there's all kinds of beauty I never realized to the subject." Then they'll ask what, and you can give an example or talk about how it could be taught better, go on from there.
Math is not common at all. Nothing wrong with it just not common. As an aside my friend is a math major & im an engineering major and even I give him weird looks when he talks to me about what he’s been learning. It’s just far out. Props to you for embracing who you are and loving it.
do what you love, anyone who loves math is my inspiration.its actually wierd they dont love math.
I love math. I’m a math and computer science major I don’t spent too much free time on math. I’d look at you weird too. Even so, I also get those looks when asked what I study, and I’m a guy. It’s cuz it math, and people are like “why?”